posted by:
jennjr (
reply)
post date:
07.22.05 (6:14 am)
Interesting question indeed.
Let me start by saying I am both pro-choice and pro-capital punishment.
I guess my pro-choice standpoint evolves around just that: the right to choose. For me, it's not so much about what I believe, it's about my right to make an informed decision.
If placed in that situation, I would choose to NOT have an abortion, but nonetheless, I am fully in favor of having the right to make such a decision. I don't believe in abortion as a form of birth control, but I believe it is a choice a woman should have. After it's all said and done, she's the one who will have to live with the consequences of her actions...
Anyway, I'm also pro-capital punishment. While in and of itself, it is socially sanctioned murder, there are some crimes that are simply too heinous.
I, for one, feel that the guy in Montana (a repeated sex offender) who skipped bail, killed three people, abducted two kids, sexually abused them both repeatedly and then killed the little boy, should be put to death...How do you rehabilitate someone like this?
It's an interesting paradox. I think that people forget that an eye for an eye is not the golden rule, and on the surface it almost seems like that's what I'm saying, but there comes a point where I think we are living by the golden rule - do unto others as you'd have done to you.
He killed. Is this must be what he'd have done to him?
It's a fine line to walk, for sure.
I'm not even sure if I answered your question. I think I got sidetracked.
But thanks for such an interesting and thought provoking post. I'm sure the opinions expressed will be widely varied. I look forward to reading the discussion on it.
posted by:
GoddessOfSouls (
reply)
post date:
07.22.05 (6:53 am)
Do you not think that perhaps its a fear which separates us on those two subjects? The unborn Child has yet to have a chance and relies on us to nurture it into fruition it has no chance without the Mother to carry it.
who has the right to decide which lives and which does not. when does it become right or wrong to each individual Its when it becomes personal to you!!
but compare that to someone who strikes fear deep into you as a parent to protect your own from the Charlie Manson's of this world .. I believe that as complex as our minds can make an issue it will,
for some of us there just isn't a cut and dry answer, Personally I myself would always wonder if I had made a mistake as a child actually I did worry some about this debate of is it right to take the life of another, and perhaps that is why I find myself torn today, you see a pat answer would be NO!! NEVER but then along comes someone who's crimes are so very horrific that I can see no other alternative, if he is clever enough there is no prison to hold him, if he is evil enough he will prevail in time.
Let me ask you, lets say its your decision to make and you choose life for him/her and in time they are free again by whatever means and they commit this crime again to someone you know and you have to face there family what do you say to them the innocents?
Fear is born from the Unknown and The Known
posted by:
Newbie (
reply)
post date:
07.22.05 (12:05 pm)
Those are interesting questions.....
I..for one...strongly agree with you when it comes to pro-life. I believe just because a child is inside of its mother does not give the mother the choice to choose whether her baby lives or dies. Though, I do agree that if it may come to the mother's health that if the existing child continues to live, it would kill her when she gives birth. But, I do not agree that even if a woman has sex, becomes pregnant, and decides to get rid of the child inside of her, I do not agree that she has the freedom to choose whether to kill her child or to let it live. She should have considered the outcome of her sexual actions before she went through with them. Which she had apparently not before her child was conceived. Abortion, I believe in many cases, is just a cheap way of escape by trying to escape a specific action. If she had, she would probably not have gone through with her previous actions. Her baby should not have to pay for her former mistakes with its life. That is my opinion on abortion.
posted by:
G (
reply)
post date:
07.22.05 (4:13 pm)
Pastor, I am sincerely disappointed that you based your reasoning completely on your own faulty emotion and opinion rather than scripture.
I respectfully submit the following verses in support of the death penalty; and I encourage you to give us several that verses that specifically contradict the death penalty...
And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
Gen. 9:5-6
and...
An excerpt from the 13th Chapter of Romans that clearly lays a Biblical foundation for the Death Penalty.
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
07.22.05 (5:05 pm)
Reply to: G
Matthew 5:38…
“"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you…” (NIV)
John 8:3-11
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." (NIV)
Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[a]says the Lord. (NIV)
Although Cain murdered his brother, God spared his life. Although David conspired to murder Uriah, God showed mercy. Indeed, those who nailed Jesus to the cross were offered the gospel at Pentecost.
It's just not so cut-and-dried.
posted by:
FinalyFree (
reply)
post date:
07.22.05 (8:03 pm)
Hmm. My liberal mind is very much in the favor of a woman's right to choose. My conservative mind tells me that more than likely I'd never be able to have an abortion. I think the bottom line is I appreciate the choice.
The death penalty issue is just as complicated. My Uncle was murdered over 20 years ago. The death devastated my Father but I can remember him telling me that he wasn't sure he'd want the killer to suffer the same fate as his brother did. The killer remains at large to this day. I see my Father's point. However, if someone killed one of my children I don't think a humane, captial punishment death would satisfy me. I pray I'll never be faced with this.
Both these issues hit close to home with me as a christian and as a church employee. I'm sure you can identify with that feeling :)
posted by:
shayno (
reply)
post date:
07.23.05 (9:15 pm)
PastorDave,
i am in agreement with you, except for one point. "mercy-killing", in this matter i stand for the person who wants to die. i find no moral, ethical, or biblical evidence against it. although i would like to believe i would never want to die in such a manner i have never had terminal cancer with my body racked with severe pain 24/7. i would however and have discussed with my spouse that in the event that i be incapacitated by injury to the vegetative state, i would prefer not to burden my family, and indeed would want the "plug" pulled.
i wonder where you draw the line on this issue. do you support the decesion to sign a Do Not Resusitate order for the terminally ill?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
07.24.05 (7:46 am)
Reply to: jennjr
Then, you view capital punishment as acceptable societal vengence. If our laws were consistent, we could take a violent criminal and lock him/her away for the rest of his life. This would be harsh but justifiable punishment, I think.
To be pro-capital punishment and pro-abortion is consistency, I believe.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
07.24.05 (7:56 am)
Reply to: GoddessOfSouls
I would blame our criminal justice system for allowing such a person to go free. I believe a person can be rehabilitated, but that person should still pay fully for their crime. I think of Karla Faye Tucker, the axe-murderess who was executed by lethal injection in Texas while GW Bush was governor. While in prison she dried out from her drugs and made a commitment to Christ as Savior. Her life showed a marked and positive change through the years, as she awaited the legal process. She became a great help to many. She became a kind and useful individual. George Bush still refused to stay her execution, although encouraged to do so by many religious and political leaders. I think justice would have been served if she had been sentenced to life without parole, where she could have continued to be helpful to others although behind bars.
What she did was dispicable. If I were the parent or sibling of her victim, and if opportunity presented itself, I may have tried to put an axe through her skull. That's fiery emotion and personal revenge. I don't think such would be motivated or sanctioned by God, and I would have to answer for such action. But, I want my society to have a higher standard of conduct than myself or any other individual.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
07.24.05 (8:02 am)
Reply to: Newbie
You are a teenager and I admire your conviction. I know how very difficult and life-altering an unwanted pregnancy must be to a young woman. It would take much selflessness and sacrifice to choose to give birth, especially when abortion is so readily available. I deeply admire the young person who finds herself in that situation, and then chooses life. She is to be praised by the church community, I think. And helped.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
07.24.05 (8:06 am)
Reply to: FinalyFree
How we govern our individual lives and consciences may vary, and sometimes fall short of the ideal. I could see the individual, who has been so very much wronged, seeking and extracting revenge. And I wonder if a jury of his peers would convict him. But, I want my society to be governed by a higher standard. Justice is blind.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
07.24.05 (8:10 am)
Reply to: shayno
I do not believe an informed and prayerful decision to "pull the plug' on someone in a demonstrable and irreversible vegetative state is to be called a mercy killing. I was thinking more of the actions of those like Jack Kevorkian. It's a difficult issue, for sure.
posted by:
jennjr (
reply)
post date:
07.24.05 (8:30 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
While it would be a justifiable punishment, I may still have to disagree with you....There's a cost that goes along with the housing of these prisoners, and we as tax payers foot this bill. This brings up a whole new issue, I realize.
For me, though, I have an issue with this. I don't feel that the prison system works. It neither punishes or rehabilitates. It's simply a wharehouse for criminals.
We make halfhearted attempts at rehabilitation, but at the end of the day, I guess I have an issue with someone who's serving a life sentence having access to luxuries like cable tv and the opportunity to receive a college degree.
It's an issue borne of frustration, really. If we're going to rehabilitate a criminal, then we need to focus on the rehabilitation of criminals. Give them job-training skills, so they won't rob a liquor store for money.
If we're going to punish them, then we need to punish them....
Again, I may have gotten off-subject. I'm not quite sure...
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
07.25.05 (8:24 am)
im bothered by the justification of murder on the grounds of 'a womans personal choice.' its a dangerous standard.
im also bothered by the implication of captial punishment - that certain people deserve to die - as if anyone deserves to live.
that we have value is not in question in my statements. life is valuable. but its not deserved. if in fact it was deserved it wouldnt be so valuable after all.
americans in particular of which i am one seem to think that our constitutional rights are somehow also ratified by God.
my point is simple - we have no rights before God. and under God - our rights can never infringe on each other. so not only am i against abortion and capital punishment but i am against the war as well. so i guess i would ask you pastordave - is it consistent to be in favor of killing people as long as they arent us or our babies or is this 'no killing' thing more of a universal ideal?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
07.25.05 (3:13 pm)
It IS inconsistant... Here's another twist. I'm anti-abortion, but I want it (abortion) legal all over the world. Christians have the right and responsibility to encourage people to keep their babies, adopt unwanted children and make the lives of all the people they (we) come in contact with easier, better and more fulfilling. Having said that, Christians DO NOT have the right to belittle people who decide for their own reasons to terminate a pregnancy, or legislate the right away because of faith. Christ never forced anyone to do anything. He was all about choice. Most Christians, conservative and otherwise, forget that.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.03.05 (6:32 am)
Reply to: graceshaker
Is killing justified in warfare? While warfare involves savagery, I think there is such thing as a just and noble war. It should require alot to cause me to need to kill someone. The motive must be higher than revenge, money, or personal animosity. Self protection and the preservation of society are proper reasons for war, I think. And, the war against terrorism is justified. We are engaged in WWIII; it is a sad but necessary conflict.
Thanks for your insightful challenge.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.03.05 (6:37 am)
Reply to: surrogate
The termination of a pregnancy is, I believe, a matter of life and death. It is not equivalent to elective surgery, morally speaking. As much as I sympathize with the diffuculty of the decision, I cannot agree. You are right, of course, I cannot belittle the person. But I have to believe it is a wrong decision. A sad decision.
Also,I hate to say it about this issue, but you are right: Jesus was all about choice.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
08.04.05 (5:01 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I also think it's inconsistant (in this country) to be removing the safeguards for people who might want to keep their babies at the same time the government is in the process opf trying to take abortion rights away. Abortions have gone up every year sin GWB took office for reasons that are not so hard to figure out if you look at the way his economic policies are affecting the folks on poverty bubble.
I've never understood how Christians (at least those without the blinders of radical fundementalism) can support these guys. They run on the emotional religious issues and govern for the wealthy alone. Can you imagine a law being passed, for instance that makes it illegal for medicare and medicaid to negociate prices for prescription drugs? How does that make sense? I know it's off topic a bit... but not really.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
08.04.05 (3:06 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
about "just and noble war" i have only this to offer...
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.05.05 (2:17 am)
Reply to: graceshaker
Interesting words, spoken by a leading general of the allied effort of WWII, whose commands influenced the deaths of million. Obviously war saddened this man, and obviusly can sometimes be justified.
posted by:
heavyarms (
reply)
post date:
12.21.06 (8:26 am)
No one has posted to this one in a while, so I hope you catch this. I am in favor of the death penalty and against abortion.
I'm against abortion in ALL cases, even rape and incest. I agree that a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body, but that right ends when it affects the life of another person, even the "unborn." While I agree that cases and rape are especially traumatic to the victim, that is not justification enough to make a victim out of the unborn child as well.
Most people are against the death penalty, and one of the reasons most often given is that "we may execute a person that does not deserve death." Most rational people accept that we are unsure if life begins at conception or at birth, it's a shame this same cautionary argument is not applied in the case of abortion.
Regarding the death penalty. Pastor Dave, how do you feel about self-defense? Do you carry a firearm, or are you at least in favor of people carrying a firearm in the interest of self-defense? I do. I do so because I have made the decision that if I ever feel that my life, or the life of one of my family members is threatened, I am going to use lethal force in defense. We use this same basic argument in times of war. If we feel our society is threatened, we must be willing to use lethal force against an agressor. Shouldn't this same basic principle be applied in legal issues as well?
The aborted child has not been given a chance at life. The executed prisoner, the enemy combatant killed in action, they have had their chance and chose an option that could result in their death.
If you feel that a country has a right to use lethal force in times of war, if you feel that an individual has a right to use that same force in self-defense, I don't believe that you can be consistent in being anti-death penalty.
In the most literal translations of the bible, the commandment reads "You shall not murder." Is killing someone in the act of self-defense, during time of war, or capital punishment really murder? I don't believe it is.
