NEVER AGAIN THE BURNING TIMES – A Reader Responds, Part 1
NEVER AGAIN THE BURNING TIMES – A Reader Responds, Part 1
Fairmoon & I are swapping books; she is reading Mere Christianity, by C. S. Lewis, and I am reading the above mentioned book. It's a challenge for me- certainly not devotional material, but good reading I think. It's well-written, and I challenge others to join me in reading this interesting book.
I’m into chapter five, so I am gaining a taste for the book. My intention is not to write a scholarly review; it’s been a long time since I’ve been in College.
This book is about Witchcraft, but modern adherents prefer the name Wicca. This is not a religion I have had much contact with. I run across teenagers who claim to be Wiccan, but after some questioning I come to understand it is just a religious flavor of the week for them. I know of an old, creepy building in a nearby town that is rumored to be a gathering place for witches, but I doubt it.
All my life, I have understood witchcraft to be associated with the occult and Satanism. Now this book tells me witches do not worship the devil. Instead, they apparently have a variety of deities, at the forefront being a Mother-Goddess and a Horned-God. He was called Lucifer by earlier adherents in England, and perhaps even today. This book tells me that modern Wiccans practice only “good magic” and “good spells”. If I remember correctly, there is a three-fold theory of reciprocity; that whatever you cast forth will come back to you threefold.
Did you know that a witch can be male or female? No self-respecting male witch would want to be called a warlock.
A FEW INTERESTING EXCERPTS:
“When individuals pray or make offerings in an effort to bring about some change in themselves or their environment- in terms of the distinction I am making- they are performing magic.” – p. 5
Such is not my understanding of prayer. The prayer is not magical. I am not focusing my power upon others. Prayer is asking of God. He does the work, not the prayer.
“Because the initiation included a vow of secrecy, I cannot quote from the secret books.” – p. 16
Why secret teachings and secret books? Are there beliefs that would be damaging if known by others? Oftentimes the cults of the Christian faith have “secret beliefs”, quite heretical, that are kept secret from the average believer because the leaders know of their incompatibility with the very tenets they profess to the public to believe.
“…the ultimate boon of life-eternal…is reserved for those who progress through many births by learning, & learning entails the suffering, or hard work, of mastering the craft.” – p. 21
Nothing unique about this. It’s a works-based religion; one must be good enough to earn his way to eternal life. Eternal life, for the Christian, comes when you realize you will never be good enough to earn your salvation, and so by simple faith you accept what God has done for you through Christ.
“The witch- who is in all societies aligned with the polarity of evil…” – p. 44
I ask why? Have people, all through the centuries, and in all kinds of cultures, all been mistaken about witchcraft?
Speaking of the Middle Ages in Europe when witches were persecuted and killed, the writer states: “Accusation of witchcraft followed the refusal of charity to the newly pauperized. Uncharitable householders who suspected the rejected beggars of cursing them were able to justify their stinginess by resort to the new Calvinist ethic and by accusing the beggar of witchcraft.” – p. 50
I am so glad we do not have a “Christian” government. I would hate to have the Christian equivalent of the Taliban, or these charlatans of the Middle Ages, running my country. I’ll place my Christian faith next to any and all faiths, in the arena of public ideas and behaviors, and I think Christianity will win. But when we force our faith on others, and persecute those who are different, we lose.
Well, that’s some of my reading and response. As I continue, I want to know if the writer will admit there is a dark side to Witchcraft. I want to know her response to Biblical teachings about the faith. And, I want to know about the state and practice of witchcraft in America, today.
See ya in a few days!
08.22.05 (7:11 pm) [
edit]
posted by:
preceptlady (
reply)
post date:
08.22.05 (4:34 pm)
Excellent review so far Pastor.
posted by:
Longshot (
reply)
post date:
08.22.05 (4:44 pm)
Good stuff as usual!
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
08.22.05 (6:25 pm)
im wondering what your take is on those churches that have invited wiccans into their doors for inter-faith dialogues...
posted by:
LeananSidhe (
reply)
post date:
08.23.05 (5:40 am)
Responce to your comments on the excerpts:
1. Is prayer not magical? In my opinion it is, afterall your are connecting with the highest. Do you not find a prayer answered to be a magical thing?
2. Not all paths of Witchcraft have secrecy. I am leary of any faith that does.
4. Witches are not deemed as evil in ALL societies. Some societies understand the true belief structure of the faith and therefore understand that there is nothing evil to be concerned about. Yes, alot of societies thoughout history have mistaken about Witchcraft, thus the burning times, ect. At the hands of those who did not understand or take the time to do so because their religion and leaders forbid it.
5. I do not think any faith wins or loses. I do agree that no person of any one faith should push their faith or their idea's on anyone else and then condemn them if they do not convert. Well said.
I am glad you are taking the book in with such an open heart and mind. You will find, such as with any religion, that there are many takes and many differing opinions out there and with any such book you should take from what you will and leave the rest behind. I find learning about all the worlds religions and cultures to be wonderfully interesting even if you don't always understand or agree with what you learn.
Happy reading!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.23.05 (2:41 pm)
Reply to: LeananSidhe
Thanks for your interaction with my comments.
I've been thinking today about my question as to why witchcraft has been considered evil by most societies. It is also true that Christianity has been persecuted by most societies through the centuries, and even into today. Just because it has been persecuted is no fair criteria to judge its worthiness.
Now, as to your response #5: While I am tolerant of other religiions, and believe there can be found an element of truth in most religions, I do not think they are all equal. I do not think various religions are but spokes of the same wheel, leading to the same place. I take the proclamation of Jesus quite seriously, "I am the way, the truth, & the life. No man comes to the Father but by me." - John 14:6. I do not condemn anyone, but I do believe Christ is the greatest answer to mankind's greatest need. And, I think such is a fair interpretation of the message of Christianity.
Is prayer magical? I still say there is nothing supernatural about prayer itself. Now, the God who hears and answers my prayers is supernatural.
Let's keep talking!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.23.05 (2:46 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
I find it quite interesting that Jerry Falwell and his church invited SoulForce into their church for shared worship and dialog. Falwell is a bit right to me with his theology, and he seems to believe there is a place for such.
Why not?
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
08.23.05 (6:47 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
that is indeed interesting considering..
i havent formed an opinion either way yet. my upbringing screams at me to reject any such idea but my understanding of and relationship with God compell me to try and connect with people where they are which is in essence what led me to the basic premise of the holy wild.
i am interested in attending something of this sort to see what its like before i come to any sort of conclusions about it.
posted by:
Beyourself (
reply)
post date:
08.24.05 (5:03 pm)
Ah... but we do have a "Christian" running our government. And do we not print religion on our money, the only country in the world to do so. "In God We Trust", all others pay cash.
It is refreshing to note that a pastor should be interested in witchcraft, be it black or white. "Religions come and go, but superstitution is forever."
As long as witchcraft is not employed as a poor substitute for independent thinking, and critical judgment, hey, however and whatever floats our boats, right? That's why there are at least 80 flavors of ice cream at Larry's on St. Pete. Beach, yes?
posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
08.24.05 (6:22 pm)
my question to you now are? what are the dark sides to christianity?
there is a dark side to wicca, but not in the way that you mean. Wicca embraces the dark half of the year (winter) as a time for reflection and introspection. a time to delve deeper in to ones own personality and their personal relationship with the Divine.
Dark does not equal evil in wicca, as you may be implying.
To answer your question about why 'witches" are aligned with the polarity of evil, it's simply a matter of society and conditioning. The term witch would be applied to anyone who society needed for a scapegoat. It didn't matter if they actually practiced the faith we call wicca (the most likey didn't) it was just a quick label and would elicit the desired response. society either through the church, fairy tales, or urban ledgends was and has been conditioned to see "witch= evil"
What did you think of chapter four where she spoke of the history of "witches" and the church?
About secret beliefs: only some types of wicca keep their books and such secret. I personally think its a bit silly, as there is nothing to be ashamed of. The two groups that I am involved with are very open with their information, I can pass of URL's if you are interested.
the term warlock within pagan groups is used as an insult, it's for a person who goes against their faith or coven. There are stories of people who would 'pretend" to be wiccans and join covens, only to denouce the people later, whose people are called warlocks. i personal have never used the term- i think it's dumb.
I did warn you that when you read hte book you would have your eyes opened, espeically about the satan thing. where do you stand know that you know more about the faith? Do you trust this source as honest and truthful or do you believe it to be all made up and false? Can you still see all pagans as satan worshippers now that you've learned a little more?
yes you remember correctly about the three fold law, I've talked about it a bunch before too. Also we've got "Harm none" which keeps the bad hocus pocus in line. :D
Thank you for reading this book with an open mind. it's been a busy week for me and i haven't had much time to read... will update you on my book soon.
FM
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.25.05 (8:32 am)
Reply to: Fairmoon
Of course there are dark elements among the adherents of the Christian faith. I think the Crusades evidence such. I think racism is an exptremely ugly compatriot for some so-called Christians. But it seems to me if someone is writing a book of introduction to Christianity, and explaining historical events, to give a fair picture they would go into these matters. That is, unless they are presenting a propaganda piece.
I have not researched the subject, but I will bet there are adherents to wicca who practice a dark form of their faith. Are spells not cast intending to bring harm upon others? Have human sacrifices never been made? Don't some adherents align themselves with Satanism? Are some of the gods not harmful deities?
I'm an outsider, and a skeptic. I'm willing to read the book, and I guess I will find answers as we go along. But I do wonder if I am getting a sanitized version from you. Of course, you may wonder the same about me. But I am sure you have been exposed to more of Christianity than I have of wicca.
I do not think all pagans are Satan worshipers- don't think I ever have. But I have been conditioned to associate withchcraft with Satanism. I accept that one can be a Wiccan and not worship the devil.
We are talking about a religion here. The deities followed by Wicca are not compatible with the Christian faith. There is a huge difference, incompatible I think.
Well, enough! I'll keep plodding along with my reading. You and I can be friends, and offer a friendly encouragement to explore a difference of beliefs, can't we?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.25.05 (8:36 am)
Reply to: Beyourself
We do have a proclaimed Christian as president, but he is not running a "Christian government". Our government is not linked to any faith. I celebrate the American version of the seperation of church & state. It is a superior understanding of government.
I am reading a book about Wicca as part of a "book challenge" between myself and fine lady who is an adherent of that particular faith. But I am not a disinterested observer. I believe Christ is the answer to man's greatest need. I read the book to learn, grow, and show respect for folks like Fairmoon.
posted by:
BerlinBear (
reply)
post date:
08.26.05 (1:25 am)
Interesting post Dave. I am particularly encouraged to read your comments at the end about the separation of church and state. Your kind of Christian (and I know there are plenty of you) needs to make their voice more clearly heard in the US at present in my opinion, because you are being drowned out by more extreme factions who wish to see exactly the type of theocracy you say you do not want to see. (One such, unfortunately, is the president of your fine country).
One other point, slightly tongue in cheek, but true nonetheless. you wrote:
"Oftentimes the cults of the Christian faith have “secret beliefs”, quite heretical, that are kept secret from the average believer because the leaders know of their incompatibility with the very tenets they profess to the public to believe."
The Catholic Church has always been guilty of the same thing. It's the reason they wouldn't allow the bible to be printed in the vernacular for the longest time, the reason they excommunicated Luther etc etc etc. My point is simply that it's not just cults that go in for the secret stuff, but "mainstream" denominations too.
Anyway, interesting post. Cheers.
posted by:
LeananSidhe (
reply)
post date:
08.26.05 (5:36 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
To your responce, on my responce to #5:
I understand your view, that because you are Christian you hold your faith to be the highest, or "absolute truth" which is no more or less than I would expect because that is your faith. For me, because I am not strictly a follower of one faith or another, prefering to jumble up all the good stuff from lots of different faiths, think differently. I do think that all faiths are but spokes of the same wheel, leading to the same greatest place but perhaps seen differently depending on your chosen faith. Jee, I hope this makes sense? Anyhoo...it does please my heart that you choose to be tollerant of faiths that differ from you own because without that people like you and I wouldn't be able to speak freely with eachother and learn new things :)
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
08.26.05 (7:25 am)
nice review. i enjoyed your synopsis and feel i got the basics without picking up the book. i think the world of fairmoon as i'm sure you do, as well.
as you might expect, i see little difference between holding literal beliefs about the mystical aspects of christianity and the mystical aspects of the wiccan faith. both are indulgences of the imagination for positive purposes, at least in the minds of the adherents. for the uninitiated observer, there is little difference between praying to heal your sister and reciting an incantation for the same purpose.
I feel the same as Joseph Campbell feels about the differences between religions:
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.
~Joseph Campbell
posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
08.26.05 (4:25 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
thanksfor that kurt. i've posted at my blog in response to pastordaves comments to me. check it out.
We're on the same page with our thoughts about prayer and incantations. I loved that joseph campbell quote.
posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
08.26.05 (4:27 pm)
Thanks again PastorDave for your willingness to read the book. I've said that I lot lately and i just feel the need to say it again. i responded to your comments at my blog in a post. looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it. :D
FM
