Magick vs Prayer
Magick vs. Prayer: The Wicca Way & The Christian Way
Magick is the way a Wiccan seeks to supernaturally bring about change in the world around, and even beyond, self. It is not the same as prayer.
Let me say, first of all, that I admire someone who commits self to being an agent of positive change. A Tibetan monk may utilize a prayer wheel, a Catholic the rosary beads, or the pagan a spell- if one is trying to make the world a better place and help others, than I think it is a noble effort. Actually I respect these over millions of Christians who seldom or never utter a prayer that moves beyond self and selfish motives.
Magick is described in Never Again The Burning Times by Loretta Orion. The belief is in a great life-force that flows in and through the universe. The individual is capable of harnessing and releasing this energy through personal/group focus and ritual. For the individual, a passionate focus is necessary. A group is able to gather, draw the energy from many sources (sky, earth, one another, rocks, animals, all kinds of deities, etc), and at the height of their effort focus a “cone” of energy toward the desired objective. Thus a group of Wiccans may gather to halt the construction of a nuclear power plant, or bring about the healing of the child of a colleague. They may dance, engage in “channeling”, and practice other emotion-enhancing rituals for the furtherance of such purpose.
I do not see this as being akin to Christian prayer. As followers of Jesus Christ, we understand that He wants us to bring our cares and needs to Him. We seek to be wise and biblical in our requests. We seek to harmonize our will with His will. Then we ask. We ask with singularity and with faith. But, our faith is not in the effort of asking, but entirely in the God of whom we ask. And, the power to effect the request never comes from us. No amount of concentration or ritualistic behavior will make the prayer more powerful. All we can do is ask in faith- then it is all up to God.
I would be interested in comments from someone associated with a Pentecostal or Charismatic brand of Christianity. Such theology I believe is more emotion and self-energy driven, and thus I think more akin to Wiccan magick. I am also interested in the views of those who have a hybrid amalgamation of Wicca & Christianity. How do you understand prayer?
As I continue to read through this interesting book, my next considerations will be channeling (which I think is spiritually dangerous) and shape-shifting, which sounds fascinating and makes me think about werewolves & vampires! I suspect it's a bit more complicated that Lon Chaney's interpretation.
09.04.05 (6:58 pm) [
edit]
posted by:
LeananSidhe (
reply)
post date:
09.05.05 (5:16 am)
Hiya Dave,
Don't mind if I comment do you?
1. Please do remember you are reading but one book on the subject, and the matter does differ from author to author, from tradition to tradition and from individual to individual.
2. Not all Wiccans, Witches, or Pagans in general work with a group.
3. Prayer. As I often say: Magic is Prayer with props. Personally I don't see much difference between a Christian prayer circle/meeting and a Pagan healing/prayer circle. All in the name of the highest (by different name) to bring about a positive change. Positive energy requests, no matter the name of the religion.
4. Christians harmonize with the positive will of God (also Universal energy), as Pagans harmonize with the positive will of Universal energy (also God)
5. Christians strive to be wise, as do Pagans. Yours with your book and theologies, us with the Earth and our theologies.
See, so not so many differences but rather similarities, just in different forms. Personally, I like to compare in similarities to close the void so often widened by differences between different belief systems.
Channeling and shape shifting. I look forward to your comments on these subjects. The latter of which is not to be taken literally as it may be written.
Read & Rock on Pator Dave!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.05.05 (6:34 am)
Thanks for your comments. I'll have some interaction with you soon, but right now my teenage son is impatient to get to the computer- some life-altering instant message is awaiting!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.05.05 (6:35 am)
Thanks for your comments. I'll have some interaction with you soon, but right now my teenage son is impatient to get to the computer- some life-altering instant message is awaiting!
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.06.05 (5:21 am)
I'm an uninvited atheist gate-crasher, but I'm commenting anyway.
From where I stand, prayers and magic spells look indistinguishable. Both of them ask for suspension of the ordinary laws of the universe.
And no matter how thin you slice it, it's still bologna.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.06.05 (6:23 am)
Reply to: VancouverBound
You're invited, never a gate-crasher at this site!
My understanding of prayer is that, indeed, God sometimes suspends the laws of the universe. But often, maybe most often, He works through the natural order to affect His answers. You will ask for proof, and I can give you many examples of what I see to be as proof, but all are admittedly interpreted through the eyes of faith. But even the atheist interprets the world around him with faith.
Here's a call for those of you in the Wiccan and Neo-Pagan community. Many of you attest that your magick is the akin to prayer. Explain your concept of affecting your deity with your requests to vancouverbound, and others of his persuasion. He says there is no "God", & I assume he would not believe in the Mother Goddess, Horned-God, or any other concept of deity.
How do you present your faith to an atheist?
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
09.07.05 (6:53 am)
i may catch it for this but i dont see any similarities between formulaic rituals and prayer and i think that the only reason anyone does is bc far too many xians practice formulaic ritual disguised as prayer.
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.07.05 (7:28 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I would disagree that I interpret the world with "faith." I have no faith, at least not in the religious sense, because I have no religion.
You're right that I lack belief in gods of any sort, including (but not limited to) Zeus, Apollo, Quetzalcoatl, Odin, Amen-Ra, Yahweh, etc, etc, etc. The difference between you and I is that I disbelieve in one more god than you.
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.08.05 (8:45 am)
I've never heard of pagans "witnessing" their faith to non-believers, not in the sense that Christians do (i.e. - going door-to-door, handbill-passing, campus "ministries," etc) From my experience, the pagans I've met kept their beliefs to themselves rather than trying to force others to adopt them.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.08.05 (11:20 am)
Reply to: VancouverBound
I think you are right, that a pagan would not be evangelistic with his/her faith as would an evangelical Christian. But I would think a good pagan, convinced of the truth of his beliefs, would want others to know and believe as he. So, say someone has an interest in what he believes, how would the pagan/Wiccan give a reasoned answer to your challenges to his concept of magick?
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.08.05 (12:06 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Beats me - I won't even venture to guess what or how a devout pagan thinks. If someone wants to believe in magic(k) spells, then it causes me no grief. I've yet to be awakened on a weekend morning by a troupe of evangelical pagans, though. Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand... I just tell them I can't help them because I didn't see the accident.
posted by:
Kupov (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (3:28 am)
Reply to: VancouverBound
Jehovas witness are not christian and STAY away from those people they are insane, they want to recruit you to go to hell.
Pagans dont even feel comftorable praying out in the open with christians around let allone go door to door asking for donations or recruiting.
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (3:49 am)
Reply to: Kupov
Ever since I got a "no proselytizing" sign for my front door, the JWs haven't bothered me. My house is near one of their churches and on their door-to-door walking tours. I've been exposed to some of their kookier beliefs - there's no way they could trick me into joining their cult.
So far, every pagan I've met has kept their religious beliefs to themselves - only after polite insistence would they discuss them.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (3:49 am)
Reply to: VancouverBound
When you think about it, why do these JW's come to your door? They risk ridicule and rejection. To do so is obviously nerve-wracking and anything but fun. Are they doing it because they truly want you to experience what they believe to be the Truth? I give them a begrudging respect for such. Are they doing it because they believe this is the only way for them to get to heaven (only 144,000 will make it)- then I at least understand the desperation.
If a Wiccan truly believes he/she has the best pathway to the Truth, and yet has no interest is sharing that pathway with you, then what is that saying about his love for you? I wonder about any religion that does not motivate you to love your fellow man.
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (4:17 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
If I were interested in someone else's "pathway to truth," then I'd inquire about it myself. It's only my guess, but pagans must feel reluctant to discuss their beliefs due to their forebears having been persecuted harshly - and they're not exactly embraced even today.
I lack the respect you have for JWs. I find their proselytizing annoying and rude - their church has a sign out front, and they're listed in the phone book, so I'd have no trouble finding them were I inclined to join. JWs go door-to-door for the same reason Hare Krishnas panhandle in airports - to gain converts and ultimately money, not out of "love for their fellow man."
You don't need religion to love your fellow human beings or to be an ethical and moral person. I'm an atheist, yet I don't steal or murder or cheat; I regularly donate time and money to charitable causes. I have no religion, but I'm still a kind and generous person. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, so that isn't my motivation for doing good (or abstaining from evil).
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (5:15 am)
Reply to: VancouverBound
Let's say you have a friend who has a self-destructive lifestyle- drug or alcohol abuse, crime, etc. She has a right to make personal choices, and perhaps you have no right to ultimately interfere with her choice even to harm herself. But, your love for her would motivate you to seek to point and convince her toward another, better direction. Would you just sit back, say nothing, with the attitude that if she wants my help then she will ask for it? And, what if that person were your sister or brother? I think such is the attitude behind the evangelism efforts of a Christian.
I think you make a good point. If Heaven or Hell is one's primary motivation for doing good, then that person has quite a ways to go to grasp the essence of a quality faith. Your motivation is care for your fellow man. I would hope that, when one loves God, he would naturally have a great care for his fellow man.
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (5:32 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Ultimately, an adult has to take responsibility for his/her own decisions. Were a friend of mine bent on what I perceived as a self-destructive path, the most I could do is make my opinions known and offer help. Their mind is their own to make, and they have to live with the consequences of their actions.
If your religion impels you to do good for others, then I think that's great - but being religious is not prerequisite to altruism and/or good works. I'm living proof of that.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (5:56 am)
Reply to: VancouverBound
I agree with you on both matters.
And, perhaps the JW knocking on your door is seeking to make his opinions known and offering help.
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (6:41 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Maybe, but if I were to knock on a JW's door to say that their god(s) aren't real, it'd be considered bad form. Expecting some sort of violence to erupt wouldn't be unreasonable.
What I don't understand is: why is it that the respect atheists are supposed to extend to believers far from mutual?
posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (1:19 pm)
i agree with what leanansidhe said waaaayyy up there at the top. i would say pretty much the same thing she did, so i won't say it again.
as for the rest of what you and vancouverbound (hi btw) well, i'm going to have to process that a while.
may answer soon,
FM
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.09.05 (6:08 pm)
Reply to: Fairmoon
I'm glad to get back to the focus of contrasting prayer with magick. As an evangelical, Protestant, and I think mainstream Christian, when I pray I am not focusing an energy. I am appealing to a Person. None of the power to bring about change lies in the prayer. It is but a request. None of the energy flows through me. I understand all of the energy to flow from God, directly to the matter at hand, and according to His will. This seems quite different from channeling and focusing energy, and releasing it toward an objective. I'm not intending to be derisive of magick, just trying to point out its difference from the Christian understanding of prayer.
posted by:
LeananSidhe (
reply)
post date:
09.14.05 (6:51 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Sorry to butt into this conversation but can I just say that most Pagans do not think that their path is THE best path nor the path to the only truth but rather simply the best path to said Pagan's truth. Make sense?
posted by:
LeananSidhe (
reply)
post date:
09.14.05 (6:55 am)
Reply to: Kupov
Your right, Pagans don't go door to door trying to recruit, nor do they collect money for their cause. As for Pagan's praying with or around Christians...well I am one such Paganesque gal who will pray beside anyone of any faith.
posted by:
LeananSidhe (
reply)
post date:
09.14.05 (6:59 am)
Reply to: VancouverBound
*You don't need religion to love your fellow human beings or to be an ethical and moral person. I'm an atheist, yet I don't steal or murder or cheat; I regularly donate time and money to charitable causes. I have no religion, but I'm still a kind and generous person. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, so that isn't my motivation for doing good (or abstaining from evil).*
Perfectly said!
And good for you :)
A good person is a good person...period. I'm often more glad that people do good for the sake of doing good rather than doing good just so their God hopfully see's them doing good and reserves a seat for them in the afterlife.
posted by:
LeananSidhe (
reply)
post date:
09.14.05 (7:00 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
LOL!
Sounds like my house and my teenage daughter!
posted by:
LeananSidhe (
reply)
post date:
09.14.05 (7:13 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Even as a Christian at prayer you are directing energy. You may not be channeling it, but you certainly are directing it. You put forth a request - energy - to God. The change you wish to see lies in the request you are focusing your energy on. IE - Thought is energy. The energy does not flow though you but rather flows from you. Flows from you to God then to the matter at hand. Yes, it sounds different than the Christian understanding of prayer but really it's quite the same.
posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
09.21.05 (4:45 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
another comment I need to answer.
You said:I'm glad to get back to the focus of contrasting prayer with magick. As an evangelical, Protestant, and I think mainstream Christian, when I pray I am not focusing an energy. I am appealing to a Person. None of the power to bring about change lies in the prayer. It is but a request. None of the energy flows through me. I understand all of the energy to flow from God, directly to the matter at hand, and according to His will. This seems quite different from channeling and focusing energy, and releasing it toward an objective. I'm not intending to be derisive of magick, just trying to point out its difference from the Christian understanding of prayer."
I see how you see a diference between prayer and magic. you are quiet right when you descibe prayer that way it is different from magic. Pagans do pray as well, they do what you describe and often call it magic as well. Confusing, yes, Just sematics? maybe. *shrug* i don't think i can answer that one.
A couple of questions for you, you said you pray to a Person, do you mean jesus or God?
if Jesus, how does praying to someone those been dead for 2000 years help?
and before you say he became God, i'll ask, if that's the case, how can a person be both a person and a God?
I'm not trying to be difficult, just curious to understand how your beliefs work.
I find religion to be a funny duck sometimes. My head can sometimes go spinning when i start thinking about the inherant contradictions in beliefs once one starts writing them down and examining them. i find this to be true of all faiths. Yet when you stop thinking about them and just allow you body and soul to be a part of it- it makes perfect sense.
I'm sure that you are finding the pagan path full of contrary thought, loopholes and other confusing ideas, i'll say the same for how is see christain faith, but when i just allow it do BE it all becomes clear.
Does that make any sense?
FM
