The Myth Of Jesus
The Myth Of Jesus
I can quote many scriptures about the validity and divinity of Jesus. But, a skeptic will counter such by refusing to acknowledge the reliability of the scriptures. I believe the Christian Bible can be fairly defended as reliable and truthful historical documents, and I would enjoy moving into that debate with a future post.
Thomas Aquinas makes what I believe to be a strong proposition. If the Incarnation is a myth, that God never became a man in the person of Jesus, then history has produced an even more astounding miracle. The world has been forever transformed by the biggest of lies. This Great Lie has produced the moral transformation of millions of lives into unselfishness, separation from the worship of worldly pleasures, and the movement toward radical new heights of holiness. And, all of this produced by a mere myth?
And, the question must be asked, who invented this myth? For the first 300 years of the Christian faith, followers were subject of almost universal persecution. The public discovery and acknowledgments of their beliefs was met with hatred, persecution, torture and martyrdom. A myth may be intriguing for exploration, and a hoax may be fun for the moment, but one would not pursue such to the point of crucifixion, stoning, and beheading. Throughout history, many have refused martyrdom by rejecting Christ and worshiping the state deity. But, no one ever said that Christ was a myth that they had made up.
Liar? Lunatic? Myth? The challenge is this: If Jesus Christ is who He claimed to be, and who millions of followers have staked their eternities upon believing Him to be, then you and I are going to have to do something about about Him.
09.13.05 (9:06 am) [
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posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
09.13.05 (11:45 am)
I wonder if it really matters at this point in time. Myth or not, Jesus changed the world so drastically that if we were to ever discover he was in fact a complete myth, that wouldn't change the way people NOW in modern society believe in him.
I don't believe that Jesus is a myth. I think perhaps that he has taken on an Architypal mythical quality over the years, in the same way that Buddha, Mohammed, Confuscious (sp?) has, but they were all very much alive and real people.
Read pagan christ. I doubt you'll agree with it in anyway, but you may find it interesting. They talk about the 'mythical' Jesus.
FM
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.13.05 (11:52 am)
Reply to: Fairmoon
"pagan christ" - what is it? Book? Website?
posted by:
preceptlady (
reply)
post date:
09.13.05 (5:14 pm)
I think it matters how we view Him. Our faith and trust in Him as the Christ determines our eternal destiny.
The world view of Him now is prophecy being fulfilled.
posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
09.14.05 (1:27 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
it's a book by tom harpur. let me know if you decide to read it. I also have a booklet of disscussion questions to go along with it. My moms church did a discussion group about it, but I had school that evening and couldn't go to it.
FM
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.14.05 (6:14 pm)
Outside of the bible, there is zero secular evidence confirming the existence of Jesus: no census ordered by Augustus, no record of Herod's decree that all firstborn males be executed, no eyewitness accounts of cured illnesses or other miracles, and not a bit from the Romans (who were meticulous record-keepers) Besides that, there are no writings authored by Jesus himself and the earliest the gospels could have been written are several decades after his death. Was Jesus illiterate, or did he not think his wisdom worth writing down? Why was there such a lapse between Jesus' death and his biography?
People have believed in - and died for, and committed atrocities against nonbelievers in the name of - numerous religions and their associated gods and goddesses throughout history. Zeus, Odin, Amen-Ra, Aphrodite, Ishtar - all of these gods/goddesses had sincere worshippers who would take umbrage at the suggestion their deity was merely imaginary, and you would be hard-pressed to find contemporary evidence demonstrating that sentiment (i.e. - this god is false). Besides, even if a million people believe in a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing.
This is why it's called "faith" and not "fact." You believe in it because you want to believe, not because of convincing evidence. With few exceptions, most people adopt the religion of their parents - had your parents been Hindu, in almost all likelihood you'd be Hindu as well. If you're happy with your beliefs, then by all means continue - but if you look beyond the bible for confirmation of your faith, you're almost certain to be disappointed because the evidence just isn't there.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.16.05 (7:22 am)
Reply to: VancouverBound
You are a big part of what I like so much about t-blog. I enjoy being challenged by someone who is smart and articulate. And, my beliefs are not generally challenged by my paritioners and community. I am sure there are folks like you who live around here, and I would enjoy getting to know them, but I believe they intentionally shy away from the church and its leaders.
Now I will answer part of your response with a new post. Please check it out. What I write may not prove the historicity of Jesus, but I think it makes a credible case.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.16.05 (7:25 am)
Reply to: Fairmoon
He changed the world, most agree. But my real focus is upon how He can change a life. I want people to believe in Him, not just for historical reason, but for spiritual transformation.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
09.16.05 (8:27 am)
Reply to: Fairmoon
I'll follow-up from Ms. Moon's comment regarding Christ as a mythological archetype. The historical Jesus bare little resemblence, in my view, to the Christ mythos. I happen to think very highly of both the historical Jesus and of the Christ mythos. The Christ mythology is imminently powerful and elegant. Although the Muslim mythology cleans up a bit of untidiness inherent to the Christ mythology, the Christ mythology continues to resonate so well with so many by virtue of its near perfect balance of love/compassion/forgiveness/grace/salvation and judgement/righteousness/rules/condemnation. From a memetic perspective, it isn't difficult to see why religions that have the memetic hook of "if you don't believe, you will burn in hell" perform better memtically than religions such as Buddhism were if you don't believe, nothing bad happens to you. Islam's negative hook is even stronger than Christianity's. This is both the strength of Islam's rapid growth -- which is so much faster than Christianity's growth in the devloping world that it is scary for those of us who find all religious extremism bad for mankind -- and its weakness, since the civilized world is fairly resistant to widespread adoption of extremist religious views.
I find the writings of Joseph Campbell, a Christian himself, to be very enlightening on the subject of mythological archetypes such as Christ. Campbell's book "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" points toward all of human history following a general mythological archetype or "monomyth" as he calls it. You can access many Campbell audios for free from the website devoted to his work at www.jcf.org . Campbell died a few years ago but his work is more popular than ever. (Interesting how that still works, that people take on a mythological countenance after their deaths that they didn't foster nor deserve when they were alive.) :-)
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.17.05 (2:18 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Read & replied.
Appeal to my vanity also noted and graciously received.
It's a shame you haven't been able to get any of your own friendly neighbourhood atheists to join you for a talk over a cup of coffee (or whatever). Most of us are civil and kind, and very interested in our fellow human beings.
On an unrelated note, there's a guy infesting the usenet group "alt.atheism" who calls himself "Pastor Dave." He lives fairly close to where I (not for much longer) currently live, and he's been extremely rude and impolite to everyone on that newsgroup. I apologize for having been discourteous to you initially - I mistakenly assumed you were one & the same.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.18.05 (3:28 pm)
Reply to: VancouverBound
Maybe I should go onto such usernet group and apologize for this guy. To be rude and impolite, in the name of Christ, seems quite hypocritical to me.
I'm pretty much researched-out for the evening, having preached 2 sermons and taught a class today. But I intend to learn more about Mithraism soon.
And, these historians I reference are not personal eye-witnesses of Jesus. But I think they lend credence to the concept of an historic personage. Still, I cannot escape that Christianity requires, at heart and soul, a basis of faith. One is either willing to go that direction, or not. But, maybe you and I are moving toward faith even when we do not recognize or acknowledge such. Maybe you will not be a lifetime atheist. Is that possible?
posted by:
VancouverBound (
reply)
post date:
09.19.05 (1:18 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
It's unnecessary to apologize on behalf of someone else, especially on alt.atheism. Strange as it sounds, there are quite a few polite Christian participants - not including your namesake.
Although my own view is that almost anything - within reason - is possible, embracing religious faith of any kind is an impossibility for me (at least at this point in my life). The deeply-moving personal experience that you feel when you pray or attend a church service, I completely lack.
But don't stop going to church on my account!
posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
09.21.05 (4:34 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
sorry i haven't gotten back to you on some of your comments to me. i've had a lot going on and things are falling through the cracks.
You said: I want people to believe in him, not just for historical reason, but for spiritual transformation.
maybe you can help me to understand something, why? why to some chrsitians have these need/want/desire to tell the world about their faith and that they should join the club too?
I say some because, that concept was not part of my christian upbringing.
i have one request for when you answer, please do not quote the bible to me. I know that there are quotes about jesus being the right way, etc... what I want to understand is why YOU, personally feel strongly about this. I don't need to know what you've been told, but I want to understand why your heart/soul feels this is necessary.
I hope this didn't come across as harsh or demanding. When i wrote the words i was saying them in a kind voice in my head. :D
FM
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.22.05 (2:52 pm)
Reply to: Fairmoon
I want to respond to your request of me, for I have been thinking about it a good deal.
Here is what you wrote:
"i have one request for when you answer, please do not quote the bible to me. I know that there are quotes about jesus being the right way, etc... what I want to understand is why YOU, personally feel strongly about this. I don't need to know what you've been told, but I want to understand why your heart/soul feels this is necessary.
I hope this didn't come across as harsh or demanding. When i wrote the words i was saying them in a kind voice in my head. :D"
First, you seem to come across to me as kind and sincere, and that is because of our numerous give and take of correspondence. But you ask me not to quote the Bible.
I am tring to remember what comment I made which might have brought about this request. I do not spout scriptures indiscriminately, because I do not appreciate such being directed toward me. And I am conscious not to use scripture as the end-all in an exchange of ideas. In other words, I will not try to "hit you" with scriptures. When I quote scripture, it is to advance and hopefully clarify a point I am making.
I am a Pastor and a Christian. I read scriptures daily. I study the Bible, teach and preach the Bible. I am a conservative, evangelical, Protestant minister. And, I describe my understaing of the Christian faith as Biblically-Based Christianity. So, I have a hard time being asked, by someone with whom I have ongoing and personal communication, to never quote the Bible. In another post, you ask me to explain to basic and I think essential matters of my faith, concerning Jesus and prayer and evangelism. My understanding of these are essentially connected to the scriptures.
The Bible, in my kind of Christianity, is essential. We do not worship the Bible, but it is the Word of God. Some people ask for first-hand accounts of Jesus and what He taught. We believe the Bible contains those first-hand accounts. The Bible is inspired of God, infallible when interpreted properly, and completely trustworthy in all matters of faith and practice.
Now, I will not use the Bible as a weapon. I am sensitive that others do not see things as I do. And, really I do not demand that you or anyone else agree with me. And I do not have an exclusive hold on the truth. But, my Bible is very, very important to me.
I ask you to reconsider your request.
