Straight Talk About The Straight And Narrow
STRAIGHT TALK
Let's be straight. No pretending, no “beating around the bush”. I'll accept a few labels that others tend to hurl as derogatory stones:
I AM AN ABSOLUTIST
Truth is absolute. It is not determined by personal, subjective standards. The individual is not the final one to determine right and wrong, truth and untruth. God reveals standards of truth and morality, through His Bible & the moral order of the universe. There are moral and ethical rights and wrongs. The Christian faith is universally and exclusively true. While other religions contain elements of truth, Jesus Christ alone is God incarnate. This is incompatible with all other faiths.
I AM TOLERANT, BUT...
I respect the right of another to his/her viewpoint, and seek to give this person an honest hearing and treat with courtesy. Never am I to equate his point of view with his value as a person. But, I do not offer an unconditional acceptance of his opinions and lifestyle as being right and true. I hold firm convictions about important matters of life and faith, and such I consider to be true and right. I will listen, debate, and learn from you. Perhaps I will change because of our interaction. But truth is the objective, and I am never satisfied with just the search.
I SEEK THE CONVERSION OF OTHERS
I seek to persuade others to my point of view concerning Jesus Christ. I try to offer good reasons for others to change their beliefs, and I will proclaim this message of what I believe to be true to anyone willing to listen. But, there is an important difference between persuading and converting. I present the message, and Christ does the changing of lives. I seek to be careful in my manner of persuasion, to overflow with tact and grace and, hopefully, personal warmth. Personally I forego marketing strategies and sales pitches, for I believe I am not a salesman, but a witness. But make no mistake- I want you to have a personal relationship with Jesus.
“Those who are good at being civil often lack the strong convictions and the people who have strong convictions often lack civility.” - Martin Marty. We Christians should be forthright and honest about who we are, what we believe, and be consistent in living what we profess.
11.28.05 (12:05 pm) [
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posted by:
CrazyBeautiful3 (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (9:08 am)
Hey really good post. I think you are right in a lot of what you say. Straight talk is a good thing. Again good post.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (9:26 am)
This is a fantastic post! This is perhaps the best Christian post I've ever read on tblog, for several reasons. First, it is intellectually honest and does not dodge the obvious facts about what it means to be a "Christian", in the literalist sense of traditional Christianity. Second, it states the requirements of Christian philosophy clearly and without the normal mamby pamby intellectual evasions all to common from most Christians, on tblog and elsewhere. Lastly, this post rightly acknowledges that there are REAL DIFFERENCES between the fundamental beliefs of Christians and the beliefs of everyone else.
I don't have the time to pursue a debate on your "truth is absolute and only Christians have it" (paraphrased) statement, but, I'll try to get into that sometime tonight.
You've just earned yourself a Logia of Kurt Standing O' or a LoKo, as it is popularly known! ha! ha! (Get it -- LoKo -- Loe Koe -- loco -- you know, loco/crazy -- he he) I digress, as usual.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (9:44 am)
I was considering how many are intellectually dishonest with their opposition of the Christian faith, and the more I thought about it, the more I thought we as Christians are often less than straightforward with what we believe. Much about the Fundamentalist Christian irks me, but at least you have no question about where he stands. Those of us who claim to have a well-thought faith should be winsome, but honest with what we believe.
Thanks for your response.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (9:48 am)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Wow, kurt, I thought you would be critical and maybe even disdainful of such a straightforward statement.
I'm thinking it is just not right to hide the true nature of who we are and what we are about. So often we are afraid of what others think, and perhaps unsure of how to explain and defend ourselves (and maybe even a little embarassed?), and so we cloak our faith in more palatable language. And I'm wondering if such really does justice to the cause of Christ.
I'll look forward to some give-and-take in the near future. I always value your insights and challenges.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (10:55 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
That just goes to show how ineffective I am at communicating my core values of intellectual honesty and philosophical consistency. You and I can be very efficient with each other, even in disagreement. You say that you posess absolute truth. I say you don't. We simply have to agree to disagree at the point where you abandon reason and invoke "faith" or "revelation" or a "personal relationship with Christ" because there is no way to use our minds or logic to discuss the issue further than that, although every always tries to do just that. Discussions beyond that, at least intellectually speaking, are a colossal waste of everyone's time. All you and I can do at that point is simply further explain the details of our respective positions, we can't add anything to those positions. They are fixed in opposition with one another, philosophically. In this sense, you are my philosophical opponent but not my philosophical ENEMY. My philosophical ENEMIES are those whose beliefs clearly imply one thing and yet insist on denying the obvious inferences of their philosophy/belief/religion/faith. These folks in the later camp are intellectually dishonest which means that there is no basis upon which to even begin a rational discussion on ANYTHING.
My best guess at the number of traditional Christian folks who would answer "yes" to the question "does everyone who does not believe in Jesus go to hell?" is about 20% of all practicing Christians. I like the answer of the other 80% better, of course, but I do not like the implications of their answer -- the implication is that they are willing to practice the ultimate form of self-deception in that they are willing to mindlessly recite the creeds of their chosen faith while believing something very different in their hearts and minds.
There are, of course, Christians who don't believe that people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell. Unitarian Universalists and folks like Bishop Spong are good examples of this. The early Gnostic Christians and the members of the 1st century Jewish "Jesus movement" also wouldn't have believed this since they had a very different understanding of who Jesus was than did other Christians of the first century church who grew much faster in power and influence from their base of Roman gentiles.
posted by:
thoolou (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (11:37 am)
I very much appreciate your honesty, Dave. Great post.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (11:46 am)
inspiring post and i enjoyed the podcast as well.
when it comes to making belief statements i typically find myself following a basic guideline: remove all obstacles but the cross of Jesus Christ.
check out this old post if you get a chance:
http://www.tblog.com/templates/index.php?bid=graceshaker&static=103480
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (6:13 pm)
Reply to: CrazyBeautiful3
Thanks. I think we often hesitate to state clearly what we think, for fear of ridicule or being unable to answer the critic. But I believe those we are trying to influence would probably appreciate honesty.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (6:15 pm)
Reply to: thoolou
Appreciate that. Honesty ought to be inherent anytime we talk about something as sacred as faith. But I guess I am as guilty as anybody of trying to make my faith as attractive and no-offensive as possible. Sometimes this leads to compromise.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (6:17 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
Remove all obstacles but the cross of Jesus? Makes sense. But the cross is the hub of the Christian faith. Everything points to His sacrifice and resurrection. Lots of folks would say, "Keep everything but the cross."
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (6:21 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Is a burning hell a necessary implication of my Christian faith? Not necessarily. Certainly eternal judgment as the consequence of rejecting Jesus Christ. But the form of that judgment I do not know. It will be eternal separation, which is certainly hell in every sense of the concept.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
11.28.05 (6:41 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Hmmm... I'm not sure I understand the signficance of splitting hairs between a "burning hell" and "eternal seperation" from God? The point is that your belief that it will be very bad news for those who don't believe in Jesus as their Savior when the judgement comes for each person. "Burn in hell" is a metaphor when *I* use the phrase -- but, unfortunately not when *YOU* use it! ;-)
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
11.29.05 (10:12 am)
hmmm
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
11.29.05 (4:29 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Periodically, someone from my church will ask me to preach about Hell. I find that to be a curious request. Most of these folk do believe in a burning Hell. Interestingly, whenever they have a loved one to pass away, inevitably they believe that loved one has gone to Heaven. It doesn't matter how inconsistent was that person's life, or whether their spiritual disciplines appeared to be non-existent, or whether that persona had ever acknowledged a born-again experience. It seems we reserve Hell for folks we don't know and don't really care about all that much. If people really believed in a burning Hell, I think they would be alot more agressive and consistent with their evangelism. If I preach about Hell, I want the church folk to be uncomfortable.
As I have told you previously, I define Christianity through the prism of the Bible. Inspired Bible, with a progressive revelation of God which reaches its peak in Jesus Christ. Jesus often spoke of the concept of Hell. As does the Pauline Epistles, and the books of John. There is just no way around it. Now, the definition of Hell is open to interpretation. If it is simply seperation from God, still it is an awful place.
I'm not ready, or really capable, of ascribing any particular individual to hell. There is too much mystery to God, and really too much mystery to what constitutes a personal relationship with God, to do that. I'll proclaim Jesus as the answer to man's greatest need, encourage others to have a personal relationship with Him, and trust the grace of God for the rest.
Inconsistent? Maybe.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
11.29.05 (4:40 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Are you familiar with the Dutch Reformed Church; isn't it a strong denomination in your area? I think their doctrine is conservative, probably pretty much along the same lines as myself.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
11.29.05 (6:36 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Perhaps. Though they're Calvinists (preordination and all that) at the core... I doubt if you are.
posted by:
nullfactor (
reply)
post date:
11.30.05 (12:39 pm)
Great post... very simply stated and right to the fact. Excellently done! Ummm... is "excellently" a word?
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
12.01.05 (4:06 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Well, you certainly aren't much help then, are you? lol! I just need someone to tell me whether to pack a sweater or a swim suit! With all these people God is talking to all the time -- can't someone just ask him about this stuff?
posted by:
LongIslander29 (
reply)
post date:
12.18.05 (6:41 pm)
Its nice to see language filled with conviction and moral clarity. I think this country has been so watered down by moral relativism and secularism (perhaps they are one in the same) that it threatens to accept all in the name of "tolerance" and ultimately alter our christian culture as we know it today.
posted by:
(
reply)
post date:
02.04.06 (10:02 am)
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