Can You Love A Person And Yet Kill That Person?
Can you love a person, and yet kill that person?
I’m going to ask the question and address its complexity in this post, and ask for your thoughtful opinions. Then I intend to be quite personal, and probably vulnerable, in the next post.
Can you love a person, and yet kill that person? I believe you can. Initially I stated this position to a fellow-blogger in a debate about the awful war in Iraq, and he has made a couple of comments about its inconsistency and incredulity. I have to admit it does sound like an amazing position. Yet it is the position taken, wittingly or not, by most who claim that love is their guiding principle in life. And, certainly I mean the Christian.
Human life is sacred; the Christian believes the other person is made in the image of God. He is stamped with divinity, no matter how he appears or what he may do.
Inherent, and really non-negotiable, is the command for the follower of Christ to love others. All others. “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.” – John 13:33. “He that loves not knows not God, for God is love.” – I John 4:8. Biblically, theologically, there is really no argument. The Greek word is “agape”. I like the simple yet packed-with-meaning definition of the Holman Bible Dictionary: “Unselfish, loyal, and benevolent concern for the well-being of another.” Every word has a careful and precise meaning.
Can you love a person and yet kill that person?
I’m going to dismiss the psychotic individual, exemplified by the likes of the killer of John Lennon or portrayed in an ugly movie.
Can you love a person, and yet execute him for breach of civil law? Would you throw the switch to engage the electric chair, or press the button for the lethal injection?
Can you love a person as a law enforcement officer, and yet carry a gun and use it to stop a person from committing a violent crime?
Can you love a person, and yet fire a bullet into his head to stop him from bringing harm to yourself or your family?
Can you love a person and yet kill that person in an act of war? Not just a declaration of warfare, but actual combat, where you fire the bullet into that person’s body.
& nbsp; &n bsp; &nb sp; &nbs p; ; & nbsp; &n bsp; &nb sp; &nbs p;
I believe the movie Saving Private Ryan contains a tremendous study of the moral dilemma of combat. Several fellow soldiers, whom we have gotten to know and like through the developing plot, are killed in a firefight. A German soldier is captured. The American soldiers want him to meet the same fate as their comrades. Even their captain, a complex character played by Tom Hanks, despises this man and in on the brink of pulling the trigger himself. Under gunpoint and taunting, the German is forced to dig his own grave, all the time pitifully begging for his life. Finally the captain makes the decision. Their mission will not allow them to bring along a POW. Ethics will not allow him to kill this man. Under protest and spite of the other soldiers, he orders the prisoner to walk toward the battlefront and surrender himself to the first allied soldier he meets, even as he knows this will not happen. Later, this same German soldier confronts one of these men in a vicious hand-to-hand fight to the death with a knife. The German is stronger and gets the upper hand of the American. In what I think is a most haunting scene, the overpowering German pushes the knife into the chest of his combatant even as he looks into his face. He speaks soothingly and compassionately even as he ends the man’s life. No animosity. No hatred. Yet no mercy; it is war. I’m given the idea that, if these two men were to meet another place and another time, they could play cards and share drinks. They could be buddies. Probably when they meet one day in heaven, they would discuss the matter, and there would be no animosity. It was just business; the ugly business of war.
I solicit your give-and-take.
12.09.05 (10:13 am) [
edit]
posted by:
sweetsue (
reply)
post date:
12.09.05 (7:37 am)
I personally can't imagine killing anyone..There have been a few people along my path so far that I didn't care for..but to kill them..never..but then I have not been in any situation like our soldiers in war to know what I would do.I believe in my heart that I couldn't kill anyone..especially someone I love.This is a very good post..and would love to see how other people answer it..they are far more intelligent around here than I...lol.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.09.05 (7:42 am)
But, my fellow peace=loving friend, you and I are involved in the killing of others. If you support the war in Iraq, if you support the use of weapons by police officers, if you support the death penalty, or an armed military, or any use of deadly force- then you are involved in some degree. We cannot preach love and yet accept these practices, and not realize the two are either connected or we need to change our ways.
posted by:
senguthewolf (
reply)
post date:
12.09.05 (8:29 am)
any one has the ability to kill someone. the only problem is, they dont want to admit to themselves they could. ppl say they could never, but if pushed far enough, or if theyve convinced themselves they could, then they could.
im the same way, i cant ever see myself killing someone. but i suppose some ppl who were drafted in the army b4 felt the same way, and that others have felt the same way but have killed someone. its not right, but as long as u jusitfy it to urself...
posted by:
sweetsue (
reply)
post date:
12.09.05 (8:33 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I don't support the war in Iraq or any othe war...I don't like weapons..I don't believe in the death penalty...and know that there are others that feel the same way..and yes I have friends that think its not very American of me..but that is how I feel and are there enough of people who feel the same way to make a difference?How can those few make it change...is our faith enough?
posted by:
justinb (
reply)
post date:
12.09.05 (9:03 pm)
those are some fairly deep questions there dave. I couldn't really imagine myself killing someone. great post dave.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.10.05 (3:22 am)
Reply to: senguthewolf
I agree that being pushed too far is not reason to injure another.When Jesus said to "turn the other cheek", He was challenging this macho concept of lashing out at those who provoke us. Forgiveness, walking away are best. But in matters of self defense, and acts of warfare, can we justify killing another and still claim to be in fellowship with God? If defense or self-protection are only being feigned, then I wonder.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.10.05 (3:26 am)
Reply to: sweetsue
"...or any other war..."
Then, are you an absolute pacifist? War is never justified, self defense never to be practiced, officers of the peace are never to use violent restraint... It just seems that, somewhere along the way, you have to deal with the fact that in dealing with the human tendency toward violence, it becomes unfortunately necessary to encounter the possibility of killing another person. Sad, unfortunate, but necessary.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.10.05 (3:28 am)
Reply to: justinb
Do you own a gun?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.10.05 (4:55 pm)
Obviously, in a war setting people are going to get killed. I personally don't hold the soldiers involved in such a conflict to such a ridiculous standard as to assume that they ought not do what they need to do to survive themselves. Having said that, it is important to remember that not a single soldier ever set the policy that created the situations they find themselves in.
The real question, at least to me, is this: As Christians. are we allowed to preemptively attack another nation? Are we allowed to lie to justify putting soldiers who work for us in the positions you described for any reason?
I'm not a pacifist. I'd fight for this country if it was attacked, for instance. I'd kill to protect my family even though it goes against what I believe. That is not to say I'd go kill someone I thought MIGHT someday be a threat to my family, nor would I go fight for my country EVER in a cause that I knew, or later found out was not as represented, and further, I'd make sure, to the best of my ability, that no one else is either put in that position or left in that position any longer than is absolutely necessary, which means one second longer than it wouuld take to get them transportation home, regardless of the supposed repurcussions to the country I'd allowed my soldiers to impropperly attack. I would do evrerything in my power to assist them after leaving, with profound apologies and as much assistance as I could provide for as long as it takes without imposing my will on whatever happens even as a result of the evil I've caused previously.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.10.05 (5:05 pm)
I forgot to answwer your general question...
I can't imagine a situation where you could love someone and kill them except maybe in a mercy killing situation. I could imagine a situation where someone I could help end the suffering of someone I loved though it would sure take a lot of prayer.
We certainly have no business doing the premeditated murder associated with capital punishment. That's a no brainer. No follower of Jesus can rationalize that I don't think. The "Jesus groupies" can I guess, but not followers.
posted by:
ScubaDiva (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (8:16 am)
Question for you:
Home invasion. Intruders are holding guns to the heads of your spouse and kids - they are not rational and no amount of reasoning or acquiesence of material possessions will satiate them. One of them drops a gun and it's within your reach...
Would you kill to protect your family?
posted by:
DrForbush (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (10:19 am)
I heard the Dali Lama answer this questions a couple of weeks ago. Of course we all know that he is against violence. But, his point was that when you use violence against another person to defend your family, friends or even another stranger you are acting out of love and respect for life.
When your action deviates from love to some other emotion like hatred or revenge you are no longer acting out of love and then violence becomes evil...
That also makes you wonder about being a soldier. Are you killing people out of love or out of greed for a paycheck? When a policeman goes from doing his job out of love for the society to hatred for criminals he crosses that boundary. It is more about how why you act than what you do.
posted by:
bitchy1 (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (12:19 pm)
that is some deeply thougt out questions but like im always arguing with every 1 bout no 1 deserves to did even some 1 whos done something very VERY bad no 1 deserves to die no matter whho or what they are.... i could never kill any1 or any thing my dad had to put my dog down for me on friday cause i couldnt do it
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (12:53 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
This conflict in Iraq definitely has your attention, and I understand that. People are dying, and such is a great tragedy. I think the war is justified, and you do not, and we have discussed our differences previously. The greater good is being served by meeting the enemy on the field of battle. The Islamic militants declared war on us on 9/11, and Iraq is just one of many fields of battle. It is a statement, and if these people had an ounce of sensibility, they would understand- leave the US alone! We will see. I predict 25 years from now, Iraq will be seen as a turnaround, a victory moment, for this matter.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (12:57 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
I am not convinced that a proper rationale for mercy killing is the ending of someone's suffering. That was Kevorkian's approach, and the court found him wrong. For an illness that is clearly terminal, and the end is near and inevitable, then perhaps. I'm still dealing with this issue.
Tookie Williams, a horrible person. Unrepentant. Unchanged, I believe. Still, the death penalty was revenge for him. We can do better.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (1:02 pm)
Reply to: userfriendly
I think there is a difference between a "loved one" and "someone you love". Love is a complicated issue. I would die without hesitation for a loved one; I'm not sure concerning anyone else. I could never kill a loved one, even if he/she threatened my life. I am going to deal with this issue of what love truly means in a soon-to-come post. Thanks for you comments.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (1:04 pm)
Reply to: ScubaDiva
With no hesitation. The act would probably haunt me for the rest of life. Good question. I would do it for preservation of self and loved ones, not out of animosity toward the victim.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (1:08 pm)
Reply to: DrForbush
Great reply.
I believe the execution of Tookie Williams was out of revenge. Nothing noble, nothing loving about it. In the old West, perhaps, public hangings were a deterrant and a law-enforcement necessity. I do not believe waiting 24 years to execute Williams, with lethal injection, is in any way a deterrant. If anything, it glorifies him with through the American and world media. It's revenge, pure and simple. I feel no affinity for this terrible human being. But killing him, with the weapon of the state, is out of line.
Doc, I alway appreciate your insights.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.13.05 (1:10 pm)
Reply to: bitchy1
Sounds like you have a high respect for life. That's good; all people deserve that level of respect just because they are alive. Thanks. Sorry about your dog. I've cried over deceased pets myself.
posted by:
ScubaDiva (
reply)
post date:
12.14.05 (4:01 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
And what about when you're driving in traffic and someone does a really stupid manuever and almost kills you and your family in the car... Do you bless them or for a moment wish that they would meet their Maker ASAP?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.15.05 (3:39 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
As it happens, I know Dr. Jack. And I'm with Dr. Forbush... it gets down to why people do things, and as eccentric as Dr. Jack was ("is" - though not for much longer, he's dying), his heart was in the right place and he believed that not only what he was doing was right but that is shouldn't have had to be some lone dude providing the service he provided. To him, it comes down to the right of self- determination, right or wrong. I always had a hard time disagreeing with him on that point.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.15.05 (3:41 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I hope you're entirely correct about how this conflict is viewed in 25 years...
