posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (4:21 pm)
It's a hard thing to address I'd imagine. I'll think about what you've written here and comment more later, but my initial reaction is that within the question you repeat throughout, (as perhaps you intended) we find the answer. It's very unlikely he "chose" to be gay any more than you or I "chose" to be heterosexual.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (4:24 pm)
It is repeated intentionally.
Much about us is inborn, I guess. But not all is good. Some we should and must overcome.
posted by:
LaLunaBella82 (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (4:27 pm)
People do not CHOOSE to be gay. I am gay, but I choose not to act on it because the Bible says that it is wrong. I like women, I am attracted to women, but I continue to date MEN in hopes of maybe sparking some kind of attraction. I doesn't work! Yet I keep trying because my family, and those friends I have that a devout, ask me to.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (4:39 pm)
Reply to: LaLunaBella82
Thank you, very much, for your honest reply. I respect your struggle. May you find peace.
I checked out your latest blog. Seems you had some deep feelings for this guy. I am glad I am not doing the dating thing- it is so stressfull, and your heart can really get hurt, sometimes quite deeply.
Pray, keep working at it, don't settle for anything less than what is best and right for you, and trust the process. God is at work.
posted by:
acg (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (4:41 pm)
PastorDave, with all due respect to your experience and lifestyle, I must say that you are almost entirely misguided about homosexuals.
Few people choose to be gay. It's not like a lightswitch. You don't wake up one day and say to yourself, "Dang, I think I'll be gay starting today." Just like you don't wake up and say, "Dang, I think I'll be straight today." Despite the fact that there are some who seem to be gay due to things that happened in their lives, just like you were born with an attraction to the opposite sex, many people are born with an attraction to the same sex.
If you think it is easy for Kyle, you are mistaken. He has taken a risk in coming out in such a community as you described. But, he is being true to himself and his beliefs by saying without hesitation that he is, in fact gay.
While it is true that there have been periods in history where multiple partnered promiscuous behavior in gay society seemed prevalent, the same can be true of heterosexual society. It is true even today. Promiscuity is not and never has been limited to one sexual orientation over another.
I have known many monogamous gay and lesbian couples in my lifetime. They have many of the same desires and interests in terms of family and marriage and lifestyle as you do. They just happen to be attracted to the same gender as their own.
This makes them somehow less human or less aceptable? Not to me. Not to many of us.
People like you described who followed you into the bathroom - most folks like that have very deep psychological issues - being gay doesn't make one leer at other people in the bathroom. That's a ridiculous premise, and not one I think you could logically defend.
I've had more trouble with heterosexual males in my life than I have ever had with lesbians in terms of sexual misconduct and just horrible behavior.
You keep asking why Kyle chooses to be gay. He is choosing to be honest about his sexuality and not lie to the world about who he is. No matter how hard it may be for him living in that community as a gay man, his life would be far more miserable pretending to be something he isn't.
What is more important? Being true to yourself and being honest about who you are or fitting in because to be something or someone different means hardship?
Believing in God and being gay are not mutually exclusive states, Pastor. There are many spiritual, religious and beautiful gay people in this world.
I'm sorry that you have such a skewed view of the gay culture. Perhaps if people would open their eyes to reality rather than believe stereotypes, fewer gays and lesbians would have to be so miserable.
posted by:
LaLunaBella82 (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (4:49 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Yeah. First guy I REALLY like and I get screwed over. Not really a help for my quest to be straight
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (4:56 pm)
Reply to: acg
I appreciate your very kind and yet quite direct response. I do not think this matter is easy for Kyle. I have to respect how bold he is with this matter, especially considering the culture in which he lives.
I do admit that my association with the gay culture is skewed. I've spent most of my life in a conservative part of our country and I actively serve in a conservative church. But my understanding of Jesus involves an expectation to love others.
I know many of our predispositions of life are not chosen, but inborn. I wonder if it is healthy and right to indulge in every matter that I am predisposed toward? Some desires I have to say "no" to. If it is a desire that goes against 98% of society, then I need to study the matter thoroughly before jumping in. And there is the matter of scripture. I believe the scripture to be God's instruction book for life.
All of these color and shape who I am and how I view life. Yet I'm not closed to understanding and growth. That's why I wrote this post. Not to offend anyone, especially you.
In dialog and civil discourse we both can grow. Perhaps not agree, but it would be a dull world if we were the same.
posted by:
LaLunaBella82 (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:00 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
The latest statistics on the world epidemic of AIDS & HIV were published by UNAIDS/WHO in November 2005. Their report gives the latest AIDS and HIV statistics for the whole world and for regions.
World estimates of the HIV & AIDS epidemics at the end of 2005
Number of people living with HIV/AIDS in 2005 Estimate* Range*
Total 40.3 36.7-45.3
Adults 38.0 34.5-42.6
Women 17.5 16.2-19.3
Children 2.3 2.1-2.8
People newly infected with HIV in 2005 Estimate* Range*
Total 4.9 4.3-6.6
Adults 4.2 3.6-5.8
Children 0.70 0.63-0.82
AIDS deaths in 2005 Estimate* Range*
Total 3.1 2.8-3.6
Adults 2.6 2.3-2.9
Children 0.57 0.51-0.67
* millions
More than 25 million people have died of AIDS since 1981.
Africa has 12 million AIDS orphans.
By December 2005 women accounted for 46% of all adults living with HIV worldwide, and for 57% in sub-Saharan Africa.
Young people (15-24 years old) account for half of all new HIV infections worldwide - more than 6,000 become infected with HIV every day.
Of the 6.5 million people in developing and transitional countries who need life-saving AIDS drugs, only 1 million are receiving them.
Regional statistics for HIV & AIDS end of 2005
Region Adults & Children
Living with HIV/AIDS* Adults & Children
Newly Infected* Adult Infection
Rate (%) Deaths of
Adults & Children*
Sub-Saharan Africa 25.8 3.2 7.2 2.4
East Asia 0.87 0.14 0.1 0.041
South and South-East Asia 7.4 0.99 0.7 0.48
Oceania 0.074 0.0082 0.5 0.0036
Eastern Europe & Central Asia 1.6 0.27 0.9 0.062
Western & Central Europe 0.72 0.022 0.3 0.012
North Africa & Middle East 0.51 0.067 0.2 0.058
North America 1.2 0.043 0.7 0.018
Caribbean 0.3 0.03 1.6 0.024
Latin America 1.8 0.2 0.6 0.066
Global Total 40.3 4.9 1.1 3.1
* millions
During 2004 around five million adults and children became infected with HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus), the virus that causes AIDS. By the end of the year, an estimated 40.3 million people worldwide were living with HIV/AIDS. The year also saw more than three million deaths from AIDS, despite recent improvements in access to antiretroviral treatment.
More information
AVERT.org has many pages of national and regional HIV & AIDS statistics and a guide to understanding the statistics.
Notes
Adults in this report are defined as men and women aged 15-49. This age range captures those in their most sexually active years. While the risk of HIV infection continues beyond the age of 50, the vast majority of people with substantial risk behaviour are likely to have become infected by this age. Since population structures differ greatly from one country to another, especially for children and the upper adult ages, the restriction of 'adults' to 15-49 has the advantage of making different populations more comparable.
Children orphaned by AIDS are those children under 18 who have lost one or both parents to AIDS.
All the statistics on this page need to be interpreted with caution because they are estimates.
Sources:
UNAIDS/WHO AIDS epidemic update, December 2005
UNAIDS/WHO 2004 Report on the global AIDS epidemic
Last updated November 22, 2005
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posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:05 pm)
Reply to: LaLunaBella82
I do not want you, or anyone else, to get angry. I'm not really interested in your cut-&-paste as a long comment. Maybe if you would give me a link where I could go and read this, it would be o.k.!
I don't know the source of AIDS. It is a terrible disease, and certainly preys on gays and straights, adults and children. I pray for a cure. Still, my supposition is true- it is primarily spread by unprotected sex and primarily through the gay community. That's just a fact- not an insult, and not said disparagingly.
Can we as two thoughtful adults discuss this issue with respect for one another. Perhaps I come from a very different world than you, but give me a chance before you judge me as narrow and bigoted.
posted by:
LaLunaBella82 (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:16 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
I am very calm, very composed, and not at all angry. Nor I am JUDGING you, the Bible says Judge not lest you be judged, I am merely providing you with the tools to more thoroughly understand Kyles situation, before you JUDGE him. THOUGHTFUL adult? Maybe the word you are looking for is OPENMINDED adults, or maybe even MATURE adults. As for you growing up in a completly differant environment than I, I was born to a devout Protestant mother and a God Fearing Conservative Baptist father. I myself am a Protestant, and I love my God with all my heart.
You seem awefully quick to judge and way to jumpy. Just becuse someone OPPOSES your opinion, doesn't mean their getting ANGRY or HOSTILE. And, AIDS is NOT spread PRIMARILY through GAY men, the world HIGHEST percentage of AIDS infetced people is in the woman population. NEXT, would be Gay men, the children, then straight men. Please, take this info as a tool, and not as an insult.
posted by:
tweetyb (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:18 pm)
i have a problem with this whole picture. call me conservative but i believe we do make choices. we can choose to act on our impulses or choose to do what is right according to the bible if we believe in the bible. my thing is sodom and gomorah were clearly destroyed for that very reason....(homosexuality). so my question to churches that accept homosexuality (note that i didnt say homosexuals) what bible are you teaching from? are we skipping those important verses? and again the bible says that we cant get temptations that we cant overcome. am not saying its easy, am just saying its a struggle every day. we fail but we can get up and start over again. thing is not to get comfortable with the situation and accept it as given. its like fornication today..to many, its nothing. its a normal thing. its not a sin anymore. but it still is wrong. if we let our conscience go.......everything will be okey, we will be born fornicators, drug adicts, you name it.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:23 pm)
Reply to: LaLunaBella82
How about that- I suspect you are quick to judge, angry and hostile- and you perceive me to be the same. Isn't that a big problem with matters like this? I admit it, sometimes I do judge and allow my emotions to foremost govern my words. That's not good.
You have spurred me to examine this issue about the spread of AIDS in America today. Is it primarily through unprotected gay sex, as I have believed? Perhaps I am wrong. I'll do some checking, and I'll "eat crow" on this post if I am mistaken.
Where have you been on t-blog, and why have we not connected before?
posted by:
tweetyb (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:26 pm)
Reply to: acg
yes you can believe in God and be gay, but that doesnt make being gay right. it still doesnt change the fact that it is a sin(this is asuming you believe in the bible).
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:33 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
"Much about us is inborn, I guess. But not all is good. Some we should and must overcome."
Sorry... this comment annoys me. Pretty judgemental.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:34 pm)
Reply to: tweetyb
An interesting verse concerning Sodom is Ezekiel 16:49, which describes the sin of Sodom as being Pride and an unwillingness to help the Poor & Needy. If homosexual behavior is a sin, then surely these are also.
I thank you for your Biblical point of view. I study my Bible. I read two nights ago from Genesis concerning the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. The men of the city were intent to have homosexual relations with the angels/visitors, and were supernaturally blinded to prevent the act.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (5:37 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Well, is it necessarily wrong to make a judgment? I seek to be careful not to judge the value of the worth of a human being. But, to judge an action as right or wrong can, when arrived at carefully and properly, be right.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (6:01 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave You use that argument a lot... I find it horribly flawed, and nothing more than an excuse to justify fear based prejudices. You have no more right to judge how God made another person than they have to call your way of thinking small minded or petty. You claim to know the mind of God? Let God do the judging....not you.
posted by:
almsthvn (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (6:14 pm)
My concern is for Kyle. I think any interaction with him that is less than loving and accepting would be an insult to Christ. It doesn't really matter if you understand his being gay - he is. I just don't believe it's for me or anyone else to point at him and say "bad dog". That isn't loving.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (6:43 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
I have a similar disdain for the shallow idea, used often in todays society, that to accuse someone of being "judgmental" is to end all challenge.
So, since God has made someone a particular way, the product is right and good and should not be changed? How about the person born with a birth defect? How about the person born with an adverse predisposition toward alcohol, or with sugar diabetes? Or a predisposition toward obesity? Sometimes innate urges and predispositions are not healthy, and a person would be wise to spend his life fighting it instead of accepting it.
posted by:
deviantone (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (7:10 pm)
how can you be so dense?
posted by:
preceptlady (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (7:44 pm)
In the book of Genesis, the scripture states:
God created them male and female.
That sums it up for me.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (7:50 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
And being a homosexual is in some way like having a birth defect? Or having diabetes?... Let me ask you this... You don't claim people with these other sorts of physical impairments are living sinfully do you? Sorry Dave. This whole line of reasoning is spurious... and I'm pretty sure if that you looked into your heart, you'd know it. OR... well, the "OR" is a lot worse... so never mind. Spend a life fighting the way God made you relate to other people? When you KNOW it's who you are? My question is who are YOU to say people (that God created) are "defected because they are different than you?" Homophobia is just doubt about one's own sexuality pure and simple. Couch it any way you like, it's still nothing more than hate based on fear.
I maintain THAT's a sin.... and blasphemous.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.23.05 (8:42 pm)
Reply to: LaLunaBella82
Be who you are. The Bible isn't the literal word of God. Period. God would much rather have you be a loving person whether you love a woman or a man. It would be awful for you to FORCE yourself to try to fall in love with a man if it's not entirely real for you. It would be horrid for you, your husband and worse, your kids when you finally realize you can't fake it any more at some point and it tears a family apart.
This crap fake Christians try to pull to make you feel bad about who you are is just plain evil. Unfortunately, it plays well and generates all kinds of "us against them" feelings which FAKE Christians thrive on.
You are as good as any other person in the face of the earth just the way God made you. Take this to the bank young lady. Ignore hate mongers, especially when they couch the hate under the cloak of "trying to understand" or in what purports to be "loving terms."
If you find a woman you can love comfortably and freely and she love's you back, that union will be as blessed as any other on this earth despite the cries of foul from fools. It's THEIR problem. Don't let them make it yours.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (2:47 am)
Reply to: deviantone
Explain
posted by:
tweetyb (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (2:57 am)
i agree those too are sins but we fight them just like we fight every other sin that is very appealing to us. again this only goes to those who believe.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (3:05 am)
Reply to: surrogate
"homophobia" - that's another politically correct word, once utilized, is supposed to win all debates.
Being born with alcoholism or diabetes is not a sin. Of course not. It is just the way you are made, the unfair hand some people are dealt. But if you know you have a predisposition toward alcoholism, and yet make a conscious choice to indulge in alcoholic drink, then that is where the sin comes in. The desire is there, even a deep and abiding desire, yet it is best and right for you not to give in to the desire. I believe the analogy is valid; many things in life, though desirable, are best not to be indulged.
This accusation of latant homosexuality, on the part of anyone who may question that homosexual behavior may not be healthy and right, is common. I can honestly tell you there is no man that I am sexually attracted to. I just wonder about the objectivity and validity of these studies that purport that most men are aroused by homoerotic videos. Surrogate, are you? I'm not. The very idea of anal sex with another man is repulsive, to me. Yet I know, I know, some guys find such to be appealing. And if they want to engage in such behavior, privately, that is their business. Sodomy laws in the civil arena are no good. I am consistent that morality cannot be legislated.
posted by:
tweetyb (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (3:07 am)
Reply to: surrogate
For those who believe in the bible, what the bible says is true and they strive to live according to the bible. those who believ in the koran, believe the koran is true and strive to be true to it...so pastor dave believes in the bible, isnt he alowed to express his ideas according to his belief?? he is not claiming to know Gods mind, he is just stating what the bible says.....just let it go.let him believe what he believes and express it without having people bit his head of.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (3:10 am)
Reply to: surrogate
I will say that, just because you say the Bible is not the Word of God, does not make your statement true. Even when you say it as a reasoned, thoughtful, and kind person. This is one matter that is not subject to your permission. I agree "...because the Bible says so" is not the end-all is matters of discourse and disagreement. That's why I do t-blog.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (3:30 am)
Reply to: preceptlady
So, how is the recovery from surgery? No honey-baked ham or turkey/dressing for you, I imagine. But, I'll tell Santa to be good to you and Surrogate will tell Jesus the same, and so you will still have a good Christmas.
The discussion around here has been tough, but mostly adult-like, I think. Really, I can't throw out a subject like this and not expect to be challenged. Maybe in church, but not on the internet.
Human behavior is pretty clear- heterosexuality is the "norm". We should not hate or punish someone because they deviate. Nor reward.
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (3:42 am)
People don't choose to be Gay. What they choose is whether or not to give into the fear of being persecuted for being Gay. Kyle is openly Gay, because he is courageous.
posted by:
idiotbubble (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (5:17 am)
I believe Klye didnt CHOOSE to be gay. If a person can choose, of course they will choose to be something that in the Bible says its right, right? Probably, he just thinks he is a lot happier with his partner than how he feels with his girl friends before? Maybe the guy understands him more? When a person is in love, he doesn;t care much about what other people think about him. Kyle is a brave person to come out. When he'd being honest to everybody that he;s gay, he is also ready to accept the circumstances. Kyle might have other gay friends around. They can talk to him, and he feels that he's accepted by these people. And he wouldn't feel ashamed or discriminated. Some of the gays or lesbians I know are very caring, very nice people. They are just like everyone else... if this world isn't that narrow minded abt this gay community, I believe a lot of them would live better, less miserable. I understand that God created both men and women. It;s simply about listening to Him right? If a person is born gay, if he is a religious and he believe in God, he must follow what the Bible says and change to be "normal"?
For a gay person, to be "normal" isn;t normal for them. It can be weird. How they feel when they are with people of the diffeent gender, they feel uncomfortable. Probably it;s some hormon problems, i dunno. From what I gather, most gays and lesbians come from all girls or boys school. Mostly.
Well, I do believe in God but for me, being gay is not wrong. To you, it is. It is a sin. To them, its a burden.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (5:48 am)
"I will say that, just because you say the Bible is not the Word of God, does not make your statement true. Even when you say it as a reasoned, thoughtful, and kind person. This is one matter that is not subject to your permission. I agree "...because the Bible says so" is not the end-all is matters of discourse and disagreement. That's why I do t-blog."
Sorry, I read this through three times. and I'm still not sure where you're going here.
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (8:42 am)
Reply to: idiotbubble
Being Gay is not a burden. Trying to educate people is the burden. Being Gay wouldn't be a problem if the rest of the world didn't make it one.
Here's a link for the thumpers:
http://www.tblog.com/templates/index.php?bid=cutter&static=1969846049
It's worth the read.
Another thing that was said... something along the lines of Homosexuality being shoved in someone's face.... The way I see it, you only notice it because it's something you have a problem with.
How do you think TV looks to people who aren't Gay? Do you often hear Gay people complaining about how Heterosexuality is being shoved in their face? Do you think that Gay people are offended when they see Straight people holding hands? What Gay people mind, is being forced into invisibility by the media, not to mention misrepresented.
The reason why it was such a surprise to you, Dave, that Kyle is Gay is because for as long as TV has existed, they never portrayed Gay people as "normal" people.
posted by:
userfriendly (
reply)
post date:
12.24.05 (5:58 pm)
You can't understand him unless you can accept that it's no more right or wrong to be homosexual, than hetero.
Situations like this, to me, aren't even about acceptance or tolerance .. people are who they are .. you wouldn't think any different of me for picking oranges over apples ..
posted by:
14u2nv2 (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (8:41 am)
I know you don't want to believe this..but I do believe some people are just born that way. I have a cousin who is gay, and though I couldn't put my finger on it at the time..at a very early age there was something different about Mark.
Doctors had him on all kinds of medicines for personality disorders and anxiety etc..But truly..Mark was just a gay boy who was lashing out. He was hurt and confused. Interolerance of his feelings led him to thoughts of suicide and self destructive behaviors. Mark was a good kid..he was just different.
Just remember..(whether you agree with homosexuality or not)..none of us are worthy of the kingdom of heaven. We are all sinners. We all do wrong. We all have our "demons". But God loves us regardless (even if you're gay).
So instead of questioning why he would choose this lifestyle..maybe sit back and realize that he is human. Still a person, he still has feelings. He seeks attention and love (as we all do). His sins may not be the "normal sins" in your eyes..but Thank god for him, be thankful that he was taught love and understanding of others at an early age..Be thankful he knows the lord and most of all pray for him daily to find peace in his heart..
posted by:
idiotbubble (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (9:35 am)
Reply to: Cutter
Not a burden? Oh okay...
Hmm, can u be more specific? i dun quite understd. LOL.
posted by:
tuck (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (11:42 am)
Pastor Dave, Looks like you are taken a lot for this blog...
I am from a small, church going town like you described...(i am gay) I attend church when i was younger and still do now... No one has ever asked me why i choose to be gay? they accept me for who I AM.
On another point:
"Why does Ellen Degeneres win all the awards, and why is Brokeback Mountain being touted as such a great movie, and why are gays so unfailingly portrayed as attractive in our media? "~ Don't forget majic johnson-(he has aids he most be gay) -Billie Jean King, Ed Gallagher, George Michael, Mellissa Etheridge, the list goes on of talented gays. Just because these people are "gay" does not mean that they are not good at what they do... Does it? ~ if they are at the top of the industry why not reward them...
~doesn't say in the bible Thou shall not judge?" ~that would be a sin also... So WHY do you have to judge? and what gives you the power to say that we are wrong???Thank you~ have a nice day!
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (2:05 pm)
Reply to: idiotbubble
Being Gay isn't the burden. Being forced to deal with ignorance and malice pointed in one's direction is the burden.
That's as straightforward as I can be.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (4:59 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
I agree- Kyle is courageous to be so open about his sexual preferences. Even bold.
"People don't choose to be gay"
I want to address this statement. I am not sure where the sexual urge/desire for the same gender comes. I consider that environment plays an important role. I will assume for a moment that it is inborn. Does that make it right and proper to act upon those urges? Civil interaction requires that some desires be inhibited for the common good. Some desires you just cannot act upon even though the desire seems natural. For example, say I have a strong attraction for my neighbor's wife. There is so much about her that I find desirable, I find us compatible, and I think about her often. It feels so right. Yet, I have no right to have her. She is exclusively connected to another. I can choose if I want to redefine marriage and sexual mores, but still to have this woman is wrong. I should never have her, even if my urge for her stays strong. It is encumbent upon me to work on my own heart. Pray that God would change my heart.
You may say that adultery with another man's wife is wrong, but a sexual relationship with a consenting adult of the same gender is not wrong. I will reply that my code of morality differs from yours. I describe my faith and morality as being biblically-based Christianity. This means the sexual union is confined to the marriage covenant. This means the sexual union of two persons of the same gender is sinful. I know many will explode when I speak so directly, but it is true when considered from the perspective of biblically-based Christianity. You can cut out the parts of the Bible that you do not like, or you define for self a religion that is not tied to the message of the scripture.
Kyle has feelings for guys. He can't help it. And, the desire is not sinful. It is part of who he is. I want him to do what is right with those feelings. Pray. Pray some more. Come to a point in his life where he wants, more than anything else in life, to live a life that is pleasing to God. This must be desired even more than to be happy, for happiness is not the ultimate aim of life. I want Kyle to study the scriptures and come to an understanding of God's will for his life. Then I want him to go about the direction in life of conforming his heart to God's heart. Then, I believe, God can and will help him with this matter. The desire may or may not go away. But the capacity to do what is right will be present, fueled supernaturally. I believe God will give him strength. I believe the right people will come alongside him to enable him.
I believe Kyle has chosen to accept gay sexual behavior as good and right. I believe he has made a wrong choice. I will not deal with him, or anyone similar to him, with intentional persecution. I do not hate him. I consider him my equal as a human being. I think he has the right, legally in America, to sleep with a man as well as a woman. And I believe he has made a choice of direction in life that will lead to great pain and lack of fulfillment. And, when it is all said and done, I do not believe he will be able to blame people of my persuasion for an empty life.
Long response, I know.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (5:14 pm)
Reply to: idiotbubble
You seem conflicted about the issue. I understand. It is impossible really to fit a person into a stereotype. I do appreciate that so many have pointed out to me, rightly, that gays are not "bad" persons. I believe that.
You seem to believe that engaging in gay sex is wrong for the Christian. Is it wrong, period?
This "live and let live" attitude about morality may not be so good. Let me ask you, and others, to consider: If I am doing something that you consider to be self-destructive, that is a dead-end road to emptiness, and along the way I may bring harm to others, then would you let me continue unabated and without any attempt to steer me to a better course of life? Would you just leave me alone? Then you must not care much about me. You certainly do not love me.
At least when the Jehovah's Witness or Mormon knocks on my door and tries to engage me in dialog about their questionable religion, their very action tells me they care about me. I have very little liking for their religious viewpoint, but I begrudgingly respect that they care for others. Now, if I truly believe what I do about Christianity and it's incompatibility with some matters, yet it makes no difference in my communication with others, then I do not love others.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (5:24 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Well, I'm saying the Bible is the Word of God. It is God's inspired Word, without error in all matters of faith and practice. As the Word of God, it just is. You may disagree, and eveybody else disagree, but that does not change the nature of this Book. This young lady was telling us that she seeks to live her life according to the teachings of the Bible, and you seem to quickly and rather flippantly tell her to dismiss such nonsense. I applaud and respect someone with her attitude toward the scriptures, and think you do her a disservice by so casually throwing aside such a bedrock conviction.
For my life, I can actually say, "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it." Don't get me wrong. I want the scriptures to be properly interpreted, in context, and with the highest of scholarship. I'm not a fundamentalist- I believe in the progressive revelation of scripture, and I do not believe in a literal interpretation of so many parts of the Bible never meant to be taken literally. It is a complex and difficult book, requiring I think divine guidance.
But I understand, in discourse with those of a different persuasion and different world view, I can't just throw scriptures at them and think that settles the matter. If my faith in Jesus Christ is best for all persons and all matters of life, than I need to be able to give a reasonable and winsome expression of that faith to those who challenge it.
So, that's what I was trying to say. Still muddled?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (5:27 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
Please give me an example, from television and movies, of a gay person being portrayed negatively. In the last ten years. Maybe it is there; I'd sure be interested to know.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (5:29 pm)
Reply to: preceptlady
Thanks, precept. This needs elaboration.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (5:32 pm)
so.. if the bible say it you believe it, that's it huh? okay... I'll remember never to bother you with reaon. A woderful comedian says... "I don't have any problem with gay marriage... but that's simply because I'm tolerant and rational."
He's right. No point in arguing with brick walls.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (5:37 pm)
Reply to: 14u2nv2
I appreciate your attitude, and challenge, very much. I do agree that it seems some are born more this way. And you are right, being gay does not preclude him from being a quality person in many ways, worthy of my love and acceptance.
But, this part of who he is, and I believe for him to act upon this matter in his life is a choice- I struggle with, I do not agree with, and I would like to see change. I know, with any person, there are things to like and things to not like.
Anyhow, yours is a thoughtful and I believe very good response. Thanks.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (5:51 pm)
Reply to: tuck
Good response. Direct, and seems to come with a good attitude. Please allow me to respond, hopefully with the same grace.
"Judge not...", from Matthew 7, is a directive from Christ to not judge the value of a human being. No matter what a person does, he/she is still a person deserving of my love and a person of value simply because he is made in the image of God. I would never disparage a person simply because of his choice of sexual partners. I can be his friend. But the Bible does not instruct me to stay away from making a determination of rightness or wrongness concerning specific matters of behavior. That's what the 10 Commandments are about. That's what the beatitudes & the rest of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) are about. If an action is against the teachings of the scriptures, and against the Great Commandment (love God, love others), then I can judge the action. But if I do so without being willing to subject myself to the same level of examination, then I am a hypocrite ("Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what measure you judge, so shall you be judged."). For instance, if I hate homosexuals, or ridicule and make-fun of gays, or seek to legislate aginst them and use scripture as my reason- then I am being a hypocrite.)
So, do you attend a conservative and Bible-believing church who know you are actively involved in a gay relationship, and experience only affirmation and acceptance from all aspects of this church?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (6:10 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
My friend, you are doing what so many fundamentalists do, cutting a part of my statement out and criticizing just that part. I qualified what I mean by that. I believe the Bible and the Christian faith can most often be quite reasonable. And, you know, "reason" can also be a brick wall if it is your without-exception guidebook for life. Some things are right, yet not reasonable.
So, you think you have me figured out? I don't think so!
You sure are a puzzle.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (6:18 pm)
"Some things are right, yet not reasonable."
name one
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (6:37 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
That God's only Son, never committing a sin, and proclaiming a message of pure love, would die on a cross for the sins of mankind. Not reasonable, but it was my only hope of salvation. Not reasonable, but right.
Loving my enemies, turning the other cheek, forgiving 70 times 7, losing my life that I might find it...
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (6:42 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
You don't believe in turning the other cheek - which is quite reasonable...
You causlally make blanket statements (untrue) about Ellen D. winning "all the awards." (pulled out of your posterior) You comment on movies you haven't seen... Dave, I know you think you're an objective and honest "seeker of truth." But you reject, out of hand anything that goes against your idea of what being a Christian has meant to you in the past. You're satisfied with your ideas... and seem to be blind to your prejudices... all of which would be fine with me if you didn't hold yourself out as an more than just another guy to your parishoners... and yet by raising this stuff I know I seem to be judging.
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (6:56 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
I'm not sure where the urge for the only opposite gender comes from. Too, There's a difference between sex and gender. Are you talking about body parts, mannerisms, clothing, or chromosomes?
Does it make it right? Ummmm... what exactly makes it wrong, other than a 5,000 year old book written by a bunch of PEOPLE.
Perhaps Kyle DID pray. Perhaps God told him to go ahead and LOVE.... to FEAR NOT.
You don't consider him an equal. You're sitting there pitying him! If he's happy, and no one is getting hurt, why does it matter so much to you? What if he IS fulfilled? Just because it would trouble you to partner with a man, doesn't mean it troubles him, or that it ever will. I dare to say that what might trouble him is his friend passing judgement on him.
Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it wrong.
You're judging him. You're judging his actions. How RIGHT is that?
You say you're a "Pastor". Fine. Then it's you job to be there for those who seek you out, not to chastise those who do not fall in line with what you believe to be right, and not to judge. If you're right about your God, isn't it his job to do the judging? I'm sure that Kyle knows all about the rules of the church. Why do you think it's your job to reinforce them? Isn't it your job, as his friend, to just love and support him? Isn't it your job, as a Pastor, to just be there for him if he comes to you?
Is it that you fear guilt by association? Is it that you fear "failing" as a Pastor?
What exactly is it that you fear?
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (7:00 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
"Please give me an example, from television and movies, of a gay person being portrayed negatively. In the last ten years. Maybe it is there; I'd sure be interested to know."
Just about ALL of them!
For starters, not all Gay men are feminine! Not all Gay men know something about fashion, curtains, or fine wine!
Not all Gay men are ridiculous. Not all Gay men like women's clothing and bond with women like sisters.
The majority of Gay men are just normal guys, who prefer partnering with people more like themselves, instead of not like themselves.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (7:08 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
I thought you were seeking an example of something that was right, yet not reasonable?
Brother, I never claimed to be perfect or even good at turning the other cheek. I'm a sinner. Sometimes I am mean-spirited. I am quick to judge and often slow to forgive. Sometimes I am quite dim-witted in spiritual matters. Here I am, at this point in my life, and I have so very far to go to even be one iota what I ought to be. And, to be like Jesus, I haven't even begun.
I am so sorry if I come across as smug and holier than others. Those very qualities I disdain in others. I am no better than anyone, and have no claim to righteousness other than the mercy of Christ.
I am no better than Kyle. My original intent, in writing this post, was to share the struggle with the lifestyle of this young man and my love for this actual flesh-and-blood person. It is alot easier to have a theology, but when it runs up against a person, then I struggle.
If I really come across so awful, then something is wrong. I've tried to be gracious and kind, yet honest, in my interaction here on t-blog. I know this is a very sensitive issue. I was hoping to break some ice, to have some thoughtful yet loving interaction. I know gays have an awful time, especially with the very ones who ought to be loving them, Christian folk.
I interact in Christian and ministry circles, and I see regularly this contempt for others- other faiths, those who live outside the mores of the Christian faith, gays, etc. I don't like it.
By the way, you really don't know how I hold myself up to my paritioners. I'm not holier, or better, than anyone. I've done posts about several of my paritioners - the mechanic who never attends church, the couple who lived together without being married, the man being considered as a deacon but was quite unconventional in his beliefs. Surrogate, I still struggle mightily with many of the basics of a healthy faith which I seek to impress upon my congregation. I'm a sinner, a struggler, a hypocrite, a novice. I admit to it.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (7:10 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
You are right- these are common stereotypes. I stand corrected.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (7:27 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
Who says the Bible is a 5000 year old boook written by a bunch of people? To me, and millions of others, the Bible is the Word of God, without error, and absolutely trustworthy in all matters of faith and practice. Have you carefully considered this book, and read it- or do you summarily dismiss it because it challenges you?
Kyle is my equal, as a person of value. His choice of behavior is not of equal value to other choices that could and should be made.
I believe someone is being hurt. Kyle is doing something harmful to himself and others, and I believe it will lead him further from true peace in life. I know you disagree with this.
I've addressed this matter of "judging others" in another place in this blog. Let me say that I am not judging him, but I am judging an action. That is Biblical.
I do not think it is my job to be mean or hateful to Kyle. I think of the Adulterous Woman, in the book of John, to whom Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn thee. God, and sin no more." If someone sins, then the very sin does the condemning. It is my job to love that person. Sometimes, the most loving thing to do is to disapprove of the behavior as I love the person.
Now, what is this stuff about fearing guilt by association. As I recall, Jesus made a habit of associating "with publicans and sinners." I'm not dirtied by associating with any person. You may be surprised with whom I choose to associate, and avoid.
What do I fear, as a minister? Hmm... That I would be a dishonest minister, a man without convictions, one who goes about his "job" without truly loving those he touches.
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (7:32 pm)
http://www.tblog.com/templates/index.php?bid=cutter&static=1969846049
It's a book! YOU choose what you get out of it. Why choose Lev. 18:22 and not everything else?
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (7:47 pm)
I might add, pity is not love. Pity is judgement. To "disapprove" is judgement.
Is to deny one's heart "Peace"?
Who exactly is Kyle hurting? You?
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (8:30 pm)
and let me tell you something about Jesus.
Jesus was the first "Punk Rocker". Jesus looked at his government and said, "huh? fuck that shit!" Jesus dared to question.
Did he die for the sins of others? Sort of. It was the sin of others which allowed that government to stay in power. It was the IGNORANCE of others which allowed that government to stay in power. It was the FEAR.
Jeses WAS the "son of God"... as we all are. THAT is what he was trying to say! WE are all fathers and sons and holy spirts. He didn't put himself over anyone else! Not even women!!!! THAT is why Christianity caught on. All of a sudden, everyone was seen as equal.
There were Gays then too... and it wasn't pity that Jesus felt, it was love. He didn't even see it! All that he saw were PEOPLE, and he loved them. It didn't matter what anyone else said was right or wrong. Jesus dared to think. Jesus dared to speak. Jesus didn't care what the darn Rabbis thought! He didn't care about that darn book!
Why does it matter to you?
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.25.05 (8:31 pm)
ouch. Major typo.
sorry.
JesUs
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.26.05 (3:31 am)
Reply to: Cutter
Well put cutter... Though I wish the invective would take a hike.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.26.05 (3:34 am)
Reply to: preceptlady
God created male and female... okay? That sums up what? Sometimes I'm freaked out by the intentional glossing over of things by.... oh never mind.
posted by:
onebadjen (
reply)
post date:
12.26.05 (7:03 am)
wow you opened a can of worms so to speak with this topic! to throw a little bio/psych into the mix, there was a study that i remember a professor i used to refer to as "dr copulation" lectured on about prenatal stress and rats. the offspring of mother rats that were "stressed" during the last 3rd of pregnancy displayed typically female behaviors... letting other males mount them, and in field trials such as foraging skills they were more in line with females. turns out that testotserone missed critcal periods for the development of the rat's brain due to the maternal stress. one point i remember the professor making was that many people discounted that study because they wanted to beleive that choice was involved... and some just didn't see what rats had to with people anyway.
my grandmother had said to me once that she though being gay was hereditary... i have an aunt who is openly gay, has a longterm stable relationship, and seems quite happy in her life. apparently there has at least one or two a generation in our family that has had a fondness for their own sex.
myself... i have a horomone imbalance... too many androgens essentially. which i take meds for. and while not "gay" well, i like girls too. i just happen to like men better.
you can even make evoluntionary arguments for benefits of "gay" behavior, including being a sneaky way to pass on one's DNA to the next generation... afterall most gays to go though a phase where they play straight and might impregnate someone... and most of us women sem to like our kinda gay nonboyfriends and secretly hope that maybe, just maybe, we can set them straight because they are so caring, so attentive... so just like us (this is a generalization of course. many of them are assholes just like other guys, i love my friend seth, but his boyfriend steve is a total dick.)
but even with all the somple biology being thrown in, we are humans. there is all the nature vs nurture things that we war with... and we have the power to "choose" our behavior, even if we are predispotioned to others. i am diabetic, due to heredity and chemotherapy. i chose to buy that pumpkin cake. no one made me. just like its up to me if and how much i am going to eat of it.
i like girls. i think matt's ex sex buddy is cute. i like her. its up to me if i actually hit on her and see if i can corrupt her... just like whatever consequences, moral and emotional, are mine as well.
and that's what it comes down to... our own personal challenges and choices. its what i grew up being taught in church we were here to do... learn to make the "right" choices. however "right" is such a subjective term... what is right for me might not be right for someone else. everything is open for analyzation and interpetation.
what is "right" for kyle isn't quite the same as right for you... and its your choice on what your behavior is towards him, regardless of your own personal biopsychological makeup is.
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.26.05 (8:30 am)
Reply to: surrogate
I suppose that when something hits this close to home, fangs are bared.
I have to keep telling myself that it's not my mother I'm typing to. :\
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.26.05 (9:45 am)
Reply to: Cutter
remember wise old saying: when baring fangs... make sure teeth are brushed...lol
posted by:
babe4Jesus55 (
reply)
post date:
12.26.05 (1:44 pm)
I've had a rash of old high school buddies of mine turn around and call themselves gay. I'm from the self-proclaimed "Buckle of the Bible Belt", the 3rd most conservative city in the nation, which was put in the guniess book of world records a few years back for having the most churches per capita. So, yes, we're a little right winged. I think this surge of people proclaiming themselves to be gay is just childish rebeillion, and could perhaps be what your Kyle's doing as well, given the decription of his environment, which seems closely linked to mine. Just a theory, but many people I've discussed the matter with seem to agree. Let's pray they'll grow out of their rebellion. I really hope they do; it's starting to freak me out.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.27.05 (2:38 pm)
"Have you carefully considered this book, and read it- or do you summarily dismiss it because it challenges you?"
"I just wonder about the objectivity and validity of these studies that purport that most men are aroused by homoerotic videos. Surrogate, are you?"
"Can we as two thoughtful adults discuss this issue with respect for one another. Perhaps I come from a very different world than you, but give me a chance before you judge me as narrow and bigoted."
Oy. I wonder if anything that any of us has said has made one iota of an impression that would change your mind in the slightest... If not, I don't know what the point would be of asking for "thoughtful comments and discussion." Just about every valid argument for NOT judging this poor kid has been made here in various degrees of strength... If it was just a way for you to say "the Bible says it's wrong and therefore that's what I believe." It's really been a waste of an awful lot of time and energy by all of us who's buttons have been pushed by this...
You can't HAVE a thoughtful argument with someone who's ideas are set in stone. What's the point? You might as well just hold up a Bible and say "talk to the book."
And I can't tell you how disappointing that is to me.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (5:38 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
It's a book! YOU choose what you get out of it. Why choose Lev. 18:22 and not everything else?
Ah, but it is not just a book. It is the supernatural Word of God. I do not have the privilege of choosing what to get out of it. That would put me in charge of my life, and the very heart of Christianity is to place God in charge of my life. In doing so, I must accept the message/directives of God, whether they be appealing and desirable or not. In a previous response within this post, I define more specifically what I mean by following the Bible as the Word of God.
And I am not just choosing an obscure verse from Leviticus to build my understanding from the scriptures. The Bible gives teachings against homosexual acts throughout, Old Testament and New. Just use a topical Bible, like a Naves, and this will be clear.
Interestingly, Jesus never directly addresses the subject. But He does clearly speak about adultery and fornication (both sinful), about choosing to surrender your will for His, and He often uses scripture as authority in His teachings.
Be careful when you throw out the Bible as a source of authoritative guidance in life. Something will take its place, often being reason. I think the worship of reason, or anything other than God, is idolatry.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (5:42 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
Ah, but to follow God is wiser than to follow your heart. The books of James and Jeremiah tell us how deceitful it is to only follow your heart. My heart may tell me that something is right and good, but I must judge matters of life by a higher standard. I believe that to be the will of God, as revealed through His Word. It is not easy. But it is right.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (5:54 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
My understanding of Jesus comes from three sources: (1) As I have seen and experieced Jesus in others, (2) As I share a personal relationship with Him, (3) As I find Him most clearly revealed in the scriptures, the Word of God.
I'll have to say that I do not believe Jesus would use such vulgar language. He has a higher respect for others than to speak like that.
True, He asked questions, riled up the authority figures, and had a healthy willingness to question standard beliefs. But He still worked within the system. He attended synagogue regularly. He associated with all types of people, and was always available for dialog.
He literally died for the sins of others. It is a thread that runs throughout the scriptures. It is the pinnacle of the scriptures, the reason God became a man. Last night I saw "The Lion, The Witch, & the Wardrobe", a tremendous picture of what Jesus did for you and I. I'd like for you to see the movie, and give me your understanding of it.
He did care what the canon of scripture taught. What he challenged, repeatedly, was their interpretation of the Word. And, they dared to place their interpretations on an equal basis with the scriptures. This angered Jesus.
Gays in His day? Most likely. Interestingly, Jesus said nothing about gays, pro or con. Had lots to say about sexual ethics, monogamy, marriage, sacrificial love, denying self, etc. Most likely, Jesus felt He wanted to deal with a man's heart, more than his outward behavior. And I agree that a man will only truly be changed when His heart is transformed.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (6:01 pm)
Reply to: onebadjen
I appreciate your response. Thoughtful. I just cannot agree that what is right for Kyle is not necessarily right for me. To know God brings the highest quality to life. We come to know God most clearly through Jesus Christ. And Jesus is most fully revealed through the Bible, the Word of God. Within this personal relationship with Him, we love Him and follow Him as we study and follow the scriptures. I think this is the best way of life, not just for me, but for all others including Kyle.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (6:05 pm)
Reply to: babe4Jesus55
My daughter, and a friend of Kyle, told me that many her age will dabble with homosexuality before going back to heterosexuality, and she believe Kyle will do this. Interesting, I think. As teens we do try alot of crazy things, and we do tend to become more settled as we get older. This characterizes some, but of course not all.
Thanks for the thought.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (6:39 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
What I believe is that two people, who may be of passionate but opposite persuasion, can most often find a way to meet in the middle through civil discourse. Both can put forth the very best argument and use their best persuasion. And, both must be willing to consider the views of the other. And respect those views. Along the way, both will probably be changed.
I think you have failed to honor your part of this bargain. You have the tendency, when not winning in the exchange of ideas, to go into attack mode. Maybe I approach my conversation with you with the wrong presupposition. Maybe you do not have the desire to thoroughly consider the issue and be willing to change if there is a better way to look at matters.
Look carefully. In my words, and attitude, I have tried carefully to let it be known that I am respectful of all, including any who disagree with me. You seem to exalt reason as the highest source of understanding. I think scripture deserves that place, but I think scripture is most reasonable. You reject my point of view. Fine. But you seem to disdain and dismiss such an approach to matters of life. That is not fine. No one deserves such.
We've had many enriching exchanges. This has disintegrated, and it disturbs me. Especially a response from several days ago was disturbing. I thought about firing off a response, but held back. I spent 3 days up in the mountains with my family, and sometimes thought about what you had to say. I'll have to say it was hurtful.
I know we are just guys on our computers, firing off thoughts to one another, some carefully formulated and some of dubious nature. I enjoy t-blog, and I am learning through this experience. Maybe even becoming more "liberal" in some matters?
No, you haven't convinced me. I think you have a hard time admitting that me or anybody else can be conservative, biblical, and yet convincing. On the positive, I'll bet you have few folks like myself with whom you hang around. I know I have too many people who view the world too much as I do. It is refreshing to be challenged. But I'll tell you, I'll probably only allow a friend to convince me to change.
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (6:55 pm)
You anger me. Why? Above all else, it's people like you that have caused me to despise Christians, in the past.
I'm glad that I have a heart, and a brain. I'm glad that I can question. I'm glad that I can look past those like you, and see the good intentions... the true beauty in people, Christian or no.
Your fear, and your blindness, is the bane of the Christian Church.
I hope that one day, you put down the book, and restore your heart.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (7:10 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
You do not know my heart.
Are you saying I do not have a brain because I do not see things as you do, that only intelligent and thoughtful people view the world and issues like yourself? Wow. I would never make that judgment.
It seems you have had some very negative exposure to Christians. You really do not know me. We have had a few, brief, interchanges about an issue with which we disagree. I find it hard to believe that you would think you know my quality as a human being through these little snippets of conversation.
Because I am different from you, I am an ugly person, without a heart and a brain, filled with fear and blindness, and the bane of the church?
I read through some of your posts. You admitted to being quick to say hard things. You also admitted to being willing to listen to others, and quick to forgive. Where are these latter qualities in our interaction?
You know, I would not spend so much effort at formulating and expressing my thoughts with you if I was the low-quality human being you seem to think I am. My premise is a belief I can grow and sometimes change, and always improve, as a person when I have honest conversation with others who come at life from a different perspective.
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (7:23 pm)
If I do not know your heart, how can God?
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (7:28 pm)
I look at you, and I see fear.
I've known many Christians, even Clergy, very well. Still do. This is not about the Church, or even about your stance on Homosexuality. It is about what I feel from your words. They are not kind here, they are full of fear.
I'm not judging you, Dave. I'm afraid of you.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (7:31 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
I'm not sure I know my heart.
I believe God knows me, the person I am deep within, even so deep within that I find it hard to see. He knows me because He is my creator. And, God lives within me.
God sees me, the me that goes deeper than my appearance and words and thoughts. I find it amazing and comforting that this same God who knows me, also loves me.
I don't know God all that well. Not nearly as well as I come across, sometimes. But He knows me thoroughly.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (7:38 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
O.K. I'm listening. How do I come across as expressing "fear"?
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (7:39 pm)
You desire to bring people to the wisdom that exists within the pages of the bible? How can you do that if they fear you?
To Christians, your words are par for the course, so to speak. They agree, and smile, and say "Amen".
You want to reach out? You have to lay down your sword.
Any Gay person would run away... any Gay teenager would smack down everything you say that you believe in because they fear you... because all they want is love.
"I don't understand" is not something you want to say. You are supposed to be a guide. People will not follow your flags if they are being beat to death with them.
People don't need you to understand. People don't need you to approve or condemn. People need you to care.
Smile.
Furrow your brow later.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (7:46 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
Well said. I think...I'll sleep on it. Friend.
posted by:
piratekatie (
reply)
post date:
12.29.05 (7:52 pm)
alright, i knwo it is not because of the whole they are unattractiva......trust me, i met the most amazing guy last year. amazing, good looking, great guy......he was gay. but i do think it is a choice. i beleive the devil is at work in this generation. and this is where he is. i mean, why is it that my friend, very good friend is gay, and he is an avid church goer, and we except it? well , i dont in that sense, we do not go to the same church. but it all confuses me.
we let the evil spirits in the church, so willingly. letting a homosexual get baptized and all. how can you trust and be god's, and throw one thing out of the bible to blatently back at him?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
12.30.05 (1:03 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I'm sorry for sounding mean. You are my friend.
Perhaps it sounds as though I'm not trying to meet you in the middle because this is a very old debate for me. I'm not gay, but I'm from Royal Oak, Michigan which has been, for the past fifteen or twenty years, a place where the gay population, percentage-wise, is way up there. As I watched this happen in my town, I felt very much as you do. Over the years, however, after having been, in essence, forced to have extensive dealings with many many gay folks, I realized that my feelings, no matter how I couched them, were, finally, simply a fear based prejudice against something I just didn't understand or could identify with. It didn't come quickly to me and by the time I figured out that I was just plain wrong, and began to feel the shame associated with my own realization that I had, in fact, been judging people using my own preconceived ideas about what I thought was "normal." I began, as is my tendency, to believe that if "I" finally understood it, being not all that bright, certainly anyone else who didn't was being deliberately pig-headed.
My suggestion is to get to know a bunch of gay people, (perhaps, like me, whether you like it or not.) Your heart will be changed. One of the problems with this argument is that we talk about homosexuality as a characteristic of "them."
Them? is us. All just creations of God, made the way God made them, and, if and when you look at sex as more than just a proclivity, but as an expression of love, however can we have the right to expect that the very same feelings that begat our own kids should be forever kept out of the lives of people who, for whatever reason God had (has) feel the need to express those feelings for the people they love?
In the end, to me anyway, this issue, like all prejudices, is not the sort of thing about which it's possible to "meet in the middle," but instead is something it's our responsibility to eradicate from our own psyches.
Here's the thing, eventually you WILL change your mind on the issue. If I'm not the guy to start that change in your heart, so be it.
You've already started in fact, I'll bet... Ask yourself about the way you'd have written this post fifteen years ago.
Anyway... feel free to call me on it any time I start sounding mean. Again, I'm sorry.
posted by:
sweetsue (
reply)
post date:
12.31.05 (12:15 pm)
Being gay doesn't make him any less of a person..all the things you discussed about him..would it have made a difference if you knew back then what you know about him now?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
12.31.05 (12:37 pm)
Reply to: sweetsue
No, I don't think so. I'd still love him and sek to minister to him, and seek to bring him to the point in life where the gospel would make a difference in his life.
Good question.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.01.06 (8:05 pm)
Oh boy, Dave! You really teed that one up, didn't you? Lol!
I'll be as concise here as time doesn't permit an extended discussion --
Kyle is likely attracted to the same sex for same genetic predispositions which cause you to be attracted to your wife and your wife to you. As evolution and procreation dictate that heterosexuality be the dominant genetic predisposition, this is exactly what will always be the case. Most people will always be "straight" and some people will always be "gay". Homosexuality will always occupy an extreme minority as the genes which inform homosexual predisposition naturally don't procreate at the same rate as the heterosexual gene.
The aspect of homosexuality that I find most ironic is that those of you who would have homosexuals deny their natural disposition are the homosexuals who marry, have kids, lead miserable lives of self-denial and, in so doing, propogate the genetic predisposition for homosexual in greater rates than what would be occur if all homosexuals were embrace to be what their genes tell them they are in their hearts -- people who are most happy in romantic relationships with members of the same sex.
Most homosexual persons I personally know are, on average, superior human beings to the average heterosexual person I know, including me. As a demographic, homosexuals earn more money, commit far less crime, lead more creative and inspired lives and care more deeply about thier friends, family and their community than the average heterosexual. There are many logical explanations for this and much good research available -- just google it and read away. The point is simply that Kyle only needs from you what we your friends and former congregants need from you -- love, kindness, compassion and a willingness to embrace one another as equal children of God!
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.01.06 (8:06 pm)
Oh, and Happy New Year, PD! Happy new year! I wish you a happy, healthy and prosperous 2006!
posted by:
Cage (
reply)
post date:
01.02.06 (9:28 am)
PastorDave, you seem to be intelligent and compassionate, but you lack understanding which is a component of campassion. You may never understand why Kyle and so many others are gay. You don't have the insight or the grasp on humanity and sexuality,yet. I don't mean this as a put down or an attack, but I hope one day you gain it, then may be you will understand why Kyle and so many others are unhappy.
If I can presume, I see that you have love for Kyle and other gay people in your life, that is a start to healing the unhappiness.
To put it simply, being gay is not what makes one unhappy it is the ignorance and judgement that goes along with being gay that makes one unhappy. If you and others who would just take a moment to realize this then so many lives would be a lot happier.
Thank you for questioning why Kyle is gay, know it's up to you.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.02.06 (3:11 pm)
Reply to: Cage
I do appreciate your point of view, and especially the kind and yet direct way it is expressed. I know I've struck a nerve with this post, although I never realized how passionate so many would be. Did you notice that I wrote my piece is such a way to hopefully let it be known that I am struggling with Kyle's chosen lifestyle. It religious circles, it is easy to talk about the subject and pontificate about sin, but this puts a human person perspective in my face.
I'm not ready to accept gay behavior as a God-honoring matter. But I am more convinced now, than ever, that neither gays nor anyone else will really listen to my message unless they truly know that I love them.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.02.06 (3:19 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Thanks Kurt, you are consistent with keen insights and challenging folks like myself to think more deeply.
I certainly did not realize how deep and emotional are the convictions of those on the other side of this issue. I think many equate me with a Bible-thumping, in-your-face, mean spirited fundamentalist. Conservative? Mostly, but I'll surprise you sometime if you give me a chance. Mean-spirited? It's just not there, unless I am totally blind to myself. Maybe gays have been ridiculed and hated by so many, for so long, that at this point in history there is little room for honest give-and-take with someone like myself.
Also, I wonder, where are the real Conservative Christians on t-blog? If they are out there, they must be afraid to identify themselves and join in the conversation. Maybe they are so unsure of what they believe?
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.02.06 (5:34 pm)
Reply to: tweetyb
There is no evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in the manner described in the Bible. But, having said that, I wish you and your sadistic version of God well in 2006.
Homosexuality is primarily the result of a person's genetics. But, I'm sure you are right and the rest of the other 5 billion people living on the planet with you are wrong and are on their way to hell in the handbasket -- just like the Sodomites!
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.02.06 (5:35 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
(Standing Ovation!)
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.02.06 (5:50 pm)
Reply to: tweetyb
Oh my goodness... one thing I can assure you is that Pastor Dave doesn't need your trite defenses and is glad to argue these issues openly and thoughtfully without pulling out the "it is true for me because I believe the Bible" tripe. This is perhaps the weakest possible intellectual position that anyone could ever take in any argument! I guess its OK for Osama Bin Laden to murder 3,000 innocent people in the World Trade Center's because he believes that the Q'ran says its OK? What a load of crap!
Sure, PD can say whatever he wants to say. But, it is equally true that others can respond however THEY want to respond. This is a public blog! Do you not understand the concept. If PD only wanted to hear from mindless regurgitators of fundamentalist Christian prejudice, then he'd just send you an email!
Sure, you can believe whatever you want to believe about homosexuals, blacks, women or anyone else. (Women are not to hold leadership positions in the Church, right? The man is the head of the household, too, right? Women are to cover their head at all times, right? Or, maybe you are only into applying the Old Testament principles when it is convenient for you own fear and prejudice to do so? Adulterers should be stoned to death as well, right? Sure they are -- after all, the Old Testament of the Bible is very clear on these subjects.
What about divorce? Divorcees who remarry are adulterers, aren't they? The person who marries the divorcee is also an adulterer, correct? Of course it is, even the New Testament is clear on divorce!
Boy, if those who believe like you would spend 10% of the energy you expend toward the wonderful law-abiding homosexuals in the world and apply that energy to the behavior rampant in your own religious community, then you MIGHT be able to speak without the clear judgementalism and hypocrisy which drips from each of your self-righteous and pronouncements about the dictates of YOUR God and YOUR scriptures.
Of course you don't want to debate these issues on their merits using reason and the best available independent scientific evidence -- then you might have to use your mind for something other than a self-righteous judgement machine! Besides, your too busy ignoring the scriptures that might actually apply to the problems and sins in YOUR life to get into all that.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.02.06 (5:59 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
PD -- my best advice to you is to consider whether or not you want to retain the label of "conservative Christian". I've never really understand that label as it is clearly a type of Christian right-wing political code for certain judgemental beliefs which is meant signal to others who believe like tweetyb that you are OK and that you are on the right team.
the jesus i read about was rarely any teams -- much less the "right" team! here are some suggestions:
loving christian
compassionate christian
disciple of christ
jesus simply wasn't political. no reading of scripture can suggest otherwise. even paul avoided politicizing christianity. that trend began with constantine and continues today, particularly in america.
also, i see plenty of "honest" give and take here in the midst of the typical hyperbole. as for where are your "conservative" friends on this one -- i suspect they are too busy giving away all they have to the poor and taking up their cross to follow christ to notice your being deluged with queer loving libertarian quasi-buddhists like myself! ;-)
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.02.06 (8:24 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Dear queer loving libertarian quasi-buddhist,
You are the first person to bring up Constantine in the whole debate over how Christianity has evolved into this... what? -thing Christ would barely recognize.
In the words of the great Tom Leher, "They're drinking the wa-ter
and breath-ing?
The airrrrrrrr!"
Thank you for your insight, and may it not be written off as trite just because you're a queer loving libertarian quasi-buddhist...
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.03.06 (4:46 am)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Now kurt, be nice to tweety. At least he/she is willing to enter this forum with a stated opinion. Cutter made a keen insight when he said he thinks I scare away the gay person with my rhetoric. Maybe. And I think the average conservative/fundamentalist is scared away from expressing an opinion by folk like yourself, surrogate, & cutter. I still discerning exactly why. I suspect many are just kind-hearted people with an aversion to controversy. And I am afraid some have never really thought-through these issues and tried to come up with a reasonable outlook.
There is danger in the genuine give-and-take of debate because my cherished beliefs may have to change when exposed to the light of reason. It is much more comfortable to just fool myself into thinking I have every question adequately answered.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.03.06 (5:17 am)
Reply to: surrogate
All queer-loving quasi buddhist libertarian friends thank you! ;-)
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.03.06 (5:24 am)
PD -- just for the record -- there are just as many unreasonable people who fear anything that challenges their existing world-view on the other sides of these arguments as their are on your side of the argument. just so you know, i get just as much grief for thinking people like you are valuable contributors to the debate as you would get valuing my opinion! lol!
and, ok... i'll play nicer on your blog from now on! you know how much the whole "my truth is my truth and your truth is your truth" gets my goat ;-) the problem with all that, of course, is that most people holding that opinion keep wanting to take away are block MY rights based on THEIR truth.
posted by:
DrForbush (
reply)
post date:
01.04.06 (1:24 pm)
Wow, you sure got a lot of comments on this topic. I could suggest that you chose the gay topic just to boost your ranking, a la Ellen Degeneris. However, I have read your blog for some time and I believe that you are sincere in trying to understand this subject.
I think that many people have already told you that Kyle did not choose to be gay, but you seemed to believe that Kyle could be born with gay inclination, but teach himself to choose to be straight. At least that is the way I read your comments.
Obviously the problem is deeper than just homosexuality. The problem is the clash between a culture and nature. A culture teaches one to believe that things are as they are and we shouldn't question those ideas. (Unless your culture includes a respect for questioning.)
Your culture and you presume Kyle’s culture is anti-homosexual. The culture uses every influence in the culture to teach that homosexuals will suffer if they give into their nature. Cultures have done this with other behaviors through out time - including heterosexual sexual behavior. But the inborn nature is stronger than cultural repression. If it weren’t, the "Society of Friends” would have died out. (Maybe they did?)
You give yourself away when you write: “Still, my supposition is true- it is primarily spread by unprotected sex and primarily through the gay community.” AIDS is spread through shared needles and unprotected sex, but not “primarily through the gay community” as you write. There may be a slightly higher rate for men, and it may be because of the gay community, but it is certainly not “primarily.” This is a cultural belief and not a scientific fact.
Finally, it is certain that Kyle will suffer if he remains in the culture that you describe. Maybe he believes that there are people in his circle of friends that are more accepting that the culture you describe. Maybe even some of the Christians in the church have heard Jesus’ message and they accept Kyle for who he is. If not, Kyle always has the option of leaving this community and finding another one that will accept him for who he is.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.06.06 (4:03 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I promised to examine this issue and get back with you. I came across these statistics from the CDC for 2003:
an estimated 1,039,000 to 1,185,000 persons in the United States were living with HIV/AIDS
72% of aids diagnoses resulted from men who have