posted by:
LadyG (
reply)
post date:
01.20.06 (4:59 pm)
I agree with you PastorDave. Jesus loves us all,not just the christian.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.20.06 (5:08 pm)
Reply to: LadyG
I'm not ready to say this man is not a Christian. He certainly veers from New Testament teachings. But God has an amazing way of loving the sinner, and I am quite grateful for that since I am a big sinner myself. In our self-proclaimed righteousness, we longstanding Christians sometimes forget this important matter.
Thanks for your comments. They're always good.
posted by:
LaLunaBella82 (
reply)
post date:
01.20.06 (5:52 pm)
You're JOKING, right?
I mean, ACOTRS and ACTRESSES aren't chosen for MOVIE ROLES according to their RELIGEON or their SEXUAL PREFERRANCE. They are chosen for their LOOK and their TALENT. Where he likes to stick it has nothing to do with that fact that he was chosen for the role. And just because he's a BIG SINNER, doesn't mean that he can't portray a saint in the movies. Saints aren't prefect either.
"For All Have Sinned and Fall Short Of The Glory Of God"-Romans 3:23
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged."-Matthew 7:1
"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." -Matthew 7:3-5
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posted by:
LaLunaBella82 (
reply)
post date:
01.20.06 (5:54 pm)
WOOPS! I meant to delete something, not ADD that advertisement to that party at the bottom. My Apologies!
-Sherry
posted by:
LaLunaBella82 (
reply)
post date:
01.20.06 (6:10 pm)
P.S. That was me siding with you, not getting mad at YOU. WOOPS!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.20.06 (6:14 pm)
Reply to: LaLunaBella82
I wonder if you read the entire post.
I think you just took the title, maybe a few lines, and then just started spouting off and quoting your Bible verses. If you would bother to read what I worked hard to present, you would find what I think is a very sympathetic post.
I would say that you are unfairly judgmental if you can can make such a snap judgment with just a glance. I've moved beyond that, and maybe you should too.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.20.06 (6:16 pm)
Reply to: LaLunaBella82
Alright! Nevermind! I tell you, this communication with the written word can be difficult at times.
Thanks alot, we are on the same page after all.
posted by:
eraserhead667 (
reply)
post date:
01.20.06 (6:59 pm)
It's nice to see a Christian actually have a Christian attitude for a change. Good post.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (2:26 am)
It is just civil to treat another as a person deserving of kindness and dignity. It is sad when some Christians, especially Christians, would intentionally treat some others as if they were sub-human. No place for that; Jesus would never do such.
posted by:
sweetsue (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (7:14 am)
I thought we are to love one another,treat others as we want treated..I really wonder why people have to find fault with everything and everyone..I have friends that are gay..but they are like any of my other friends..kind,loving and just people..I really am tired of all the stero typing..and if others aren't what others consider normal..I just love people for being who they are..not what others think they should be.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (8:51 am)
for xians to take something that could be a positively powerful inspiration and turn it into a trivial disagreement is just so annoyingly typical and disheartening.
posted by:
childish (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (10:07 am)
i agree with your stand. i am getting weary of christians making everything into a battle. why can't they just take the movie for what its worth (a potrayal of jim elliots life) and appreciate it for that? I hear christians complain about how there arent enough positive movies out there, but when one finally comes along, they end up waging war against it because of something petty like the actors sexual preference? its a sad sad state. I blame James Dobson.
lol!
great post!
posted by:
Makaveli (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (10:46 am)
well..i'm muslim..and this could explain alot of things
posted by:
justinb (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (1:21 pm)
mmm sounds like this could fast become quite a controversal issue. I understand that many Christians could be upset (I myself am Christian) but I don't find myself upset at all (maybe cos im not really that religeous). I understand the concern but I truely believe the issue is trivial and shouldn't be looked upon too seriously.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (1:50 pm)
Reply to: sweetsue
Wasn't Jesus just amazing about loving people as they are. Not requiring they reach a particular point of proper performance in order to love them and see them as worthwhile. I don't think He compromised His plan for others ("Take up thy cross..."), but he absolutely lovd people. If an adulterer, or wife-beater, or money-lover, had played the role then probably all these righteous ones would have said nothing.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (1:52 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
"...a trivial disagreement is just so annoyingly typical and disheartening."
Well put. It seems to me the more you love Jesus, the more you love others. Some seem to believe the more you love Jesus, the more you love the application of minute rules for life.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (1:54 pm)
Reply to: childish
I don't know what James Dobson would say. Or jerry Falwell, or Don Wildman. I respect all these men, but everyone should rejoice about this fine Christian film.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (1:56 pm)
Reply to: Makaveli
Ah, but Muslims certainly do not receive a pass concerning mistreatment and lack of love toward homosexuals. Recently in Iran two gays were stoned to death because of the sentence of a religious court.
What's your take on the matter?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (1:57 pm)
Reply to: justinb
Maybe the fact that you are not upset means you are closer to Jesus than you think? Sounds Christlike to me.
posted by:
guerillafunk (
reply)
post date:
01.21.06 (5:06 pm)
I haven't heard of this movie at all, but my mom always told me that anybody who uses their talents to uphold God is using their talents the way God meant them to.
Of course, every self-respecting Christian knows what happened with Sodom and Gomorrah, so maybe this guy isn't a saint himself, but, as the quote said, actor and character aren't the same.
In addition, playing such a role could be a step in the right direction (morally) for this man, or, it might not be. I'm sure, though, that he's learned a lot playing this role.
I don't encourage homosexuality, but it has always been around. God may not like it, but he still loves those people. We're supposed to be as Christlike as possible, meaning we should show just as much love and respect for this man as God would. AND, the actor has put his skills to good use, which I'm sure God is very pleased about. All in all, the only reason I wouldn't see the movie is if I heard it was poor in respect to cinematic quality and such, not because the star actor is gay.
posted by:
Makaveli (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (12:17 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
well..we as muslims don't accept having "gays, lebiams..watever these types r"..coz its prohibited..and maybe according to Irans law..it states that those ppl like gays i mean should be dead..although mercy is there in our religion..but when someone does something wrong which is prohibited and he knows that it is prohibited and still he keeps on doing it..then for sure he should be dead..coz he is going to make the muslims picture to the world bad..
wat do u think?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (2:52 am)
"If you really love this man, and not just with pious platitudes, then who knows what may happen as the result of this film."
I liked this post, except when I got to this sentence I thought, "Oh no, is he really hoping this actor will stop "choosing" to be (or behaving as) a gay person because of his exposure to this story,"
I really hope not. That whole premise is just too silly for words and just a veiled version of why the "Christians" you rightly chastise are upset.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (8:42 am)
I really appreciate your comments on this issue as I already understand what your theological position is regarding homosexuality. I also understand and appreciate your painstaking care about seperating "sin" and "sinner" in your expressions of your faith. You know I don't agree with you theologically -- but, I certainly appreciate you for your tolerant spirit toward those with whom you disagree.
Fundamentalist judgementalism and religious legalism produce some the worst human evil possible. This is because the evil actions, such as stoning adulterers and homosexuals to their death, are committed in the name of a God and therefore give our inclinations toward fear and the self-righteous butchery of those who are different from us the tragic cloak of "we must follow the written law of the one true God."
Christ, however, came not to enforce the "law", but, rather, to "fulfill" the law. My encouragement to any Christian struggling with the issue of how to process and understand the issue of sexual orientation is as follows:
1. Examine your own life for where your own life falls short of God's laws as you understand them.
2. Correct these deficiencies/sins with prayer, meditation, forgiveness, mercy and self-discipline.
3. Sell everything you have and give it to the poor.
4. Visit everyone you know who is sick or in prison.
5. Check on your neighbors to see what needs they have in their lives that you have the resources with which to help their plight.
6. Take up your cross and follow Christ!
7. When you complete steps 1 -6, then you will be ready to tackle the issue of sexual orientation in our society. Further, once you've completed steps 1-6, someone might be ready to listen to what you have to say about that issue as well as many others. Heck, I might even be interested in what you have to say at that point! lol!
Good show, PD!
Also, I wonder why no one gets upset when they allow fat preachers in the pulpit when obesity is the clear physical manifestation of the sin of gluttony! :-)
posted by:
TaBooTenente (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (9:50 am)
hey dave,
i like the article. one response posted on this thread mentioned something about jesus loving non-christians, too.
i feel like i "understand" christianity as well as a non-christian civilian can. i've done my best to understand the philosophy and the theology of christianity--i've studied in class the development of religions, the evolutions of religion. i think i have a decent grasp on the history of the church, and perhaps i understand how the church is part of christianity, rather than christianity existing as an expression of the church.
but this i do not understand: how is chad allen not a christian? i know you didn't say this, but i'm wondering about the reasoning behind the statement.
as far as i understand, if a man has faith in jesus as the christ, as all human, all divine son of god--if a man has faith that jesus died to alleviate a human condition of original sin (for which a mere man could never make expiation) then he is christian.
that faith and that faith alone determines christianity.
or am i wrong?
tbt
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (5:20 pm)
Reply to: guerillafunk
Well put. Let us judge the merits of the movie according to message and artistic quality. This guy is an actor. He may or may not give a good performance in this movie.
Today I read that there are some photographs out there of Marlon Brando engaging in homosexual acts. I don't want to see the photos. I think they are disgusting, and wonder why a man would want to film such an act. Still, On The Waterfront and Godfather are great movies, and he gives a great performance in those movies. Nothing has changed.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (5:25 pm)
Reply to: Makaveli
"...but when someone does something wrong which is prohibited and he knows that it is prohibited and still he keeps on doing it..then for sure he should be dead..coz he is going to make the muslims picture to the world bad.."
I'll have to say that is a fairly alarming statement. He should be dead. People should be killed because of their immoral behavior? So, I guess, we only love good people. And especially if a person brings dishonor to our religion, we kill them? I prefer the teachings of Jesus, who said, "Turn the other cheek" and "forgive seventy times seven". It is a pretty natural part of behavior in theis world to destroy our enemies with force. It is supernatural, most displaying of God's love, to forgive our enemies and treat them with kindness.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (5:31 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Keep in mind my audience. I am addressing those who, because of their strict and unyeilding application of the Christian faith, are ready to throw out this movie because of this man's personal lifestyle. They believe this man to be a terrible sinner. But, they believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is the answer to this man's greatest need. I'm saying, if they believe such, then they should welcome the opportunity to allow this man to be exposed to the gospel through this movie.
I'm attempting to use a tactic of debate. Perhaps not well!
While you probably know my personal view, it is not being stated in this particular piece.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (5:43 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Brother, I read your thoughtful and well-presented, and thorough statement on my blog, and feel badly about the short and cursery comments I tend to leave on your blog! You're so good with words.
You seem to have a problem with "sinners" opposing "sin". If any one person must be perfect before he/she can help another person, then our world will quickly degenerate into oblivion. I doubt that any of us, proclaimed saints included, have truly mastered any of the spiritual or ethical or even physical disciplines. We're just imperfect; it's the curse of the human condition. We try. We work at it. Still we fall short.
This for sure should give us an empathy toward other, including homosexuals. If I or any Christian believes that homosexuality is contrary to God's will, still I have no right to act upon that conviction without bathing my attitude and actions with empathy for other person. He & I are very much kin- we are both sinners. But this sinner (myself) has found the answer - a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that results in a life direction of His Lordship. I truly believe that is the answer for all of mankind, gay and straight and everybody.
One beggar can tell another beggar where to get bread.
-----------
So, now you have a problem with fat preachers?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (6:07 pm)
Reply to: TaBooTenente
How is Chad Allen not a Christian?
Let me first tell you, such is not my point of view. The final determinant of the reality of one's Christianity is Christ alone. Chad Allen, alone, must give answer to Jesus. He surely will, one day, I believe. But it would be presumptious of me to proclaim any particular individual to not be a Christian.
Now, let me see if I can place you within the mindset of some fundamentalists of the Christian faith: Jesus would be quoted, "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into the Kingdom...but he who does the will of my Father..." assent to particular facts of the faith would not be enough to be a true Christian. And, participation in particular rituals like baptism and the "born again" experience would not be enough. These could be just mere formalities without a true change of heart. And a man's heart must be transformed to be a true Christian. The question will be asked, "How do you know if a man's heart has been truly transformed by Jesus Christ?" The answer would be another quotation of Christ, "You shall know them by their fruits. A good tree does not bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree does not bring forth good fruit." So a fundamentalist would say, "I am not a judge of another man, but I am a fruit inspector."
So he would inspect the fruit in the life of Chad Allen. And Allen is gay. Not sorrowfully and repentantly gay, but in-your-face and proudly gay. This would be considered incompatible with New Testament Christianity. So Allen or anybody else may be able to simply state that he is a Christian, but if the direction of his life does not give evidence of that, then his words would be considered hollow.
Now, I agree with much of this. As the book of James says, "Faith, without works, is dead." One is not a Christian just because he claims that title. One's life must give evidence. But I wonde why these types choose to elevate one sin over another. The critic may, himself, be 300 pounds overweight or may have an unhealthy attachment to material things. These are easily overlooked by many modern-day conservative American Christians. But, homosexuality is a disgusting and seeming straight-to-Hell sin. I have a real problem with such inconsistency.
I do believe that homosexuality is contrary to the will and purpose of God. Having said that, this particular matter in my opinion does not automatically disqualify Chad Allen from being a Christian. I do not know the guy. I do not know the condition of his heart. Perhaps he has had a born-again experience. Perhaps if I knew him, I would see much evidence of a love for Jesus Christ in his life. He may treat others with compassion, read his scriptures faithfully, spend time in prayer with God everyday, give sacrificially of his resources to help others and to expand the kingdom of God, etc. I love God, but I have some nagging sins in my life. I'm working on these, and God is working on these, and I am a Christian. Perhaps Chad Allen can say the same?
So, that's a long answer. Maybe at least some parts are understandable.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (6:15 pm)
Yes... Lol! -- I have a big problem with "fat preachers"! How can they be allowed to stand there in the pulpit preaching the gospel of Christ while clearly so actively engaged in the sin of gluttony?
I'm kidding, of course, but, I am making a sincere analogy and one which I suggest has equal intellectual & spiritual merit to the argument those you mention in this post are making when saying that a gay person shouldn't be allowed to portray a "saint" in a movie. As usual, these people are hypocrits in the most heinous sense of the concept of hypocrisy. A good student of scripture, like yourself, knows full well that hypocrisy and self-rigteousness judgementalism were the sins of the spirit that brought the strongest rebukes recorded by the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth while He walked in human form on earth a couple of thousands ago.
Jesus walked comfortably and emphathically among the so-called "wicked" of his day -- the tax collectors, prostitutes, the poor and the base elements of his society. Jesus was despised, however, with the most vitriolic hatred imaginable by the pious religious types of his day.
It seems we have a choice to make in life about how decide to approach our humanity. We can seek to be "right" and revel in the self-congratulatory delusions of our own self-righteousness or we can choose to be pure expressions of love, compassion and kindness in the midst of an often harsh human condition. It seems to me to be very difficult for any person to be both!
The argument about who is "right" and who is "wrong" in the eyes of God seems an endless & fruitless argument. Love, contrarily, seems to require no argument from anyone. Christ, after all, never found it neccessary to point out that he was, by definition, always "right". According the Christian doctrine, Christ would have been omniscient and therefore always "right". Still, he chose to demonstrate his "rightness" via the fullest expression love ever expressed when he silently hung on a cross as a common criminal when He was, in reality, the most innocent man to ever live.
Yes, one beggar can certainly tell another beggar where to get bread! He just shouldn't go about telling others which beggars are appropriate to play the role of a "saint" in a movie!
:-)
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (6:27 pm)
You make alot of sense. A whole lot.
But...the same Jesus who spoke and insisted so much concerning love ALSO had much to say about ethics/behavior. At least, the New Testament Jesus did.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (7:24 pm)
in your reply to taboo you refer to being know by fruit and my first thot was - chad allen just starred in a movie whose inspirational msg may help lead people to christ.
thats some fruit.
and as for unrepentance - i dare say the majority of xians are engaged in some sin they refuse to truly repent of. we may experience conviction and confess but we go back to it again and again and somehow i dont think thats real repentance.
but im just thinking out loud...
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
01.22.06 (8:17 pm)
Yes, Yeshua bin Joseph spoke a good bit about ethics and behavior, for sure. But, if you examine the context of most of Yeshua's pronouncements -- they were rarely in the context of how we should use them to judge others. Quite the contrary, in fact, as Yeshua's consistent theme was to use his teachings to EXAMINE YOUR HEART and to leave the examining of your brother's heart to your brother.
I'll paraphrase Yeshua's clear teaching on the subject of moral judgement:
"Why do you speak of the splinter in your brother's eye when you ignore the much larger obstruction in your own eye? First, remove the larger obstruction from your own eye and then you will see clearly how to help your brother with the splinter in his eye."
And in another oft quoted and even more oft ignored teaching:
"Don't judge others unless you wish to bring judgement upon yourself! For the criteria which use to pass judgement on others will be used when you are judged by God."
posted by:
Makaveli (
reply)
post date:
01.23.06 (3:22 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
well..muslims religion..has mercy..god will still forgive u..we muslims love each other..would help each other..and for those ppl who does prohibited things..we guide them till they understand..and if they still don't get it..then if they r got by the state law they might be killed..depending on wat that country law state..i told u he will be killed..coz in KSA..the laws there r so tough..like ppl who steal..and caught by the police..they cut their hands..but thats not wat muslim religion states..coz mercy is there..love..
posted by:
Makaveli (
reply)
post date:
01.23.06 (3:32 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
well..muslims religion..has mercy..god will still forgive u..we muslims love each other..would help each other..and for those ppl who does prohibited things..we guide them till they understand..and if they still don't get it..then if they r got by the state law they might be killed..depending on wat that country law state..i told u he will be killed..coz in KSA..the laws there r so tough..like ppl who steal..and caught by the police..they cut their hands..but thats not wat muslim religion states..coz mercy is there..love..
posted by:
Makaveli (
reply)
post date:
01.23.06 (3:33 am)
and..The Quran..says it all..that wat i could say..
posted by:
Makaveli (
reply)
post date:
01.23.06 (3:37 am)
have u like..seen or read or heard about The Quran..if u have read about it..then u will come to know alot about muslims..we believe in only one god..and his messenger the prophit Mohammed..we muslims r not as u ppl think..terrorist or something like that..no we r not..
could i ask u this..y did america started war against iraq..r u going to tell me to help iraqi ppl..then its a HELL NO..they went there for oil..and everybody knows that..
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.23.06 (5:06 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
Good points. I agree with you.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.23.06 (5:16 pm)
Reply to: Makaveli
I own a copy of the Koran, although it is an English translation, and so I guess it would not be considered the actual sacred book. I've read some of it. It is not a very long book, but it is difficult reading- seems to be very little prose and running commentary. But, since Islam is such an important part of our world today, it would serve me well to sit down and read the book. I may put out a challenge to Muslim friends on t-blog. I, a Christian and a minister, will sit down and try to do an uncritical and thorough reading of the Koran; they, in turn, would commit to a reading of the New Testament. Think I'd get any takers to the challenge?
Please do not get the impression that I am intending to insult your faith with my comments. No way! I have deep respect for anyone who is truly serious about knowing God and honoring Him with their lives. And, I understand that millions of adherents to Islam are peaceful and loving people. I also know that my religion, Christianity, has a bloody history. The Crusades are a sad example.
My point was that, at the heart of the true meaning of Christianity, is a message of love and sacrifice. God has displayed the ultimate love and sacrifice, and calls upon His follower to do the same. I was just asking if the same message is true for Islam?
I appreciate your give-and-take, and look forward to our ongoing dialog on t-blog.
posted by:
trina (
reply)
post date:
01.24.06 (5:03 am)
I totally agree with you. This is why the world thinks of us as intolerate. Being gay is a sin just like all the others to God. Chad Allen is a sinner just like the rest of us with the only difference being that we (believers) have accepted the gift of salvation. It saddens me that people are so hateful. If they would only see the big picture. Maybe this experience will show Chad Allen what a gracious and loving God we have and hopefully he will embrace that and be healed of his homosexuality.
I am not condoning his homosexuality at all. Just saying that his sin is the same as ours to God. That doesn't mean that if he does accept salvation it's ok to stay that way. No, he would need to seek to be changed. Besides who are we to judge?
Bravo, thanks for speaking out.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.24.06 (10:07 am)
I just do not know if he has "accepted the gift of salvation" or not. The interesting question: Can a gay person be a saved person? I think my answer has been, Yes, I think it is possible. I believe the Bible clearly tells us that gay behavior is sin. But, I'll let God be the judge of this man's salvation.
Thanks for your conservative and compassionate viewpoint.
