posted by:
Sillygrrl3 (
reply)
post date:
02.08.06 (4:42 pm)
I don't have too many good comments, so I will keep them to myself. I will sympathize with your role in this situation as I was in Kindergarten the FIRST time I visited my father in prision. His latest federal inditement (that I know of) was 2-ish years ago. I am almost 30 years old. Kara
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
02.08.06 (7:44 pm)
how many times should we forgive?
this is a a statement most preachers follow up with such wonderful practical advice as 'but God never said we had to forget.' right. he just said that HE did. 'ill forgive their wrongdoing and never again remember their sin.' or some such thing eh? (jer 31:34) seems that 'never remembering sin' would mean every situation with this guy is ***brand new*** just like every time God deals with you and i.
it seems to me that God is never so practical as we like to be…
posted by:
bacardibreezer (
reply)
post date:
02.08.06 (7:50 pm)
He doesn't sound changed at all, and he is just manipulating everyone. It's so sad to see he even uses his own mother. I think everyone should let me stew in his cell for a long time...
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (3:47 am)
Sound ftustrating. Plus, I'd imagine it ends up causing you some guilty feelings either way.
Lousy deal.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (7:59 am)
Jesus also said not to caste your pearls to swine. Yes, visit him in prison. Yes, pray for his recovery. Yes, encourage him and be there for him when and if he takes responsible steps in the right direction. NO, DON'T GIVE HIM MONEY AND ENCOURAGE EVERYONE ELSE, INCLUDING HIS MOM, NOT TO GIVE HIM MONEY.
There is always a component of wisdom required in compassion. Remember, as a responsible steward of you limited resources and even more limited time in the face of limitless need, you have to discern where you are being led to minister and where you being led to embody what some call "tough love" and what others simply might call "reality therapy".
The conversion is one I'd leave for judgment day!
posted by:
True (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (8:25 am)
You definately have to use some strong wisdom here. I've had my share of people that use situations for their own benefit. I truly believe that this man inside really does have a base desire to do what is right, but because he has given himself over and over again to things that lead him to selfish gain, he has become a slave of that system. It is a natural response to do these sorts of things, because he has trained his mind to respond to the things that drive his natural desires instead of working at it to change. Regardless, it would take a while and a lot of patience in order for this man to change. But it has to begin somewhere. It wasn't until the prodigal son realized that he truly had lost everything and had nothing left that he chose to change. It is going to take that for this man. He literally has to be at the lowest of lows in his life in order to change. That may have happened in prison to some extent, but as I have seen many many times, once you are back in the environment that got you into trouble in the first place, without anything set up in yourself to deal with the temptations and issues that plagued you before with a strong accountability structure also, you will unfortunately fail. You need to be firm, frank, and honest with him. Do not give him any money. He needs to see the reality of his choices. If he is bailed out over and over again, he will not learn. Mom needs to learn to let go aswell. Her son is going to drive her into the ground. I know she loves him with a love that is a part of her every being, but there comes a time that she has to see herself as first. I know that is hard, but love is way more than fuzzy feelings, as we all know. She needs to put her foot down and kick him to the curb. Harsh now, but later it will benefit him, her, and so many others. We need to see the bigger picture, that the choices we make now will lead to something bigger and better later, even if it hurts. Be the pastor, be a good shepherd, love in tenderness, but sometimes you need to bust out the whip to put people back in their place. You have the wisdom inside you Pastor Dave, God is there within you. Trust in that. I know you will make the right decision. God bless. I'll be praying for you and the mother of this situation.
posted by:
True (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (8:34 am)
You definately have to use some strong wisdom here. I've had my share of people that use situations for their own benefit. I truly believe that this man inside really does have a base desire to do what is right, but because he has given himself over and over again to things that lead him to selfish gain, he has become a slave of that system. It is a natural response to do these sorts of things, because he has trained his mind to respond to the things that drive his natural desires instead of working at it to change. Regardless, it would take a while and a lot of patience in order for this man to change. But it has to begin somewhere. It wasn't until the prodigal son realized that he truly had lost everything and had nothing left that he chose to change. It is going to take that for this man. He literally has to be at the lowest of lows in his life in order to change. That may have happened in prison to some extent, but as I have seen many many times, once you are back in the environment that got you into trouble in the first place, without anything set up in yourself to deal with the temptations and issues that plagued you before with a strong accountability structure also, you will unfortunately fail. You need to be firm, frank, and honest with him. Do not give him any money. He needs to see the reality of his choices. If he is bailed out over and over again, he will not learn. Mom needs to learn to let go aswell. Her son is going to drive her into the ground. I know she loves him with a love that is a part of her every being, but there comes a time that she has to see herself as first. I know that is hard, but love is way more than fuzzy feelings, as we all know. She needs to put her foot down and kick him to the curb. Harsh now, but later it will benefit him, her, and so many others. We need to see the bigger picture, that the choices we make now will lead to something bigger and better later, even if it hurts. Be the pastor, be a good shepherd, love in tenderness, but sometimes you need to bust out the whip to put people back in their place. You have the wisdom inside you Pastor Dave, God is there within you. Trust in that. I know you will make the right decision. God bless. I'll be praying for you and the mother of this situation.
posted by:
guerillafunk (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (10:45 am)
This is a delicate balance issue. While it is true that Jesus wants us to help those in need, first, they need to help themselves. Second, Jesus would not want you to let yourself be taken advantage of. There are only certain things you can do for this man, the rest he has to do for himself. The only thing I think you can do for him is encourage him spiritually, and encourage his mother in the best, most informational, and least biased way possible. Try not to be condescending. Explain your logic, etc. I'm sure you know all this, you've got way more life experience than me. :P
All in all, don't do anymore favors for this guy. Just talk to him and try to reach him that way.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (11:49 am)
Reply to: Sillygrrl3
I am sorry that you have such a dysfunctional man with the label "father" attached to you. Of course you know it takes more than the donation of a sperm to make a man a father. I feel sorry for this man. He has missed out on seeing you become the outstanding person you surely are today. What a stubborn man he must be. And foolish. To be pitied. Who was the quality male role model for you? he deserves the title "father".
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (11:52 am)
Reply to: graceshaker
To treat every situation as brand new? I wonder if that would be truly healthy for him. His life is a cycle of abuse and waste, and if he is not careful, his life will end with nothing of value. I believe he is actually enabled by the free goodness of others.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (11:55 am)
Reply to: bacardibreezer
The problem is that our jails are so overcrowded. And with tougher sentencing guidelines, there is nowhere to place the new, mandatory prisoners. So people like this guy get dismissed early. He's a non-violent offender, as far as I can tell. I have to believe there is still hope for him. I just don't know if I can adequately provided that for him. The miracle he needs must come from God, and he must do his own part.
Thanks for sharing my frustration.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (11:58 am)
Reply to: surrogate
Yeah, guilt. I always think the other guy respects me, and appreciates my friendship. Then when I get burned by someone like him, it does anger me and also make we whip myself for being so naive. Naivety is a real recurring problem for me. I tend to believe the best, and expect the best of others. Then I get burned. Then I go for the bait again with another person, another time.
I guess that is better than being jaded and negative.
Thanks.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (12:03 pm)
Reply to: thunderthighs
Interesting insights. Depressive? I think so, and the mood swings are obvious, now that you mention it. Drug habit? I just don't know. I have not been around enought to gage the characteristics accurately.
I am convinced that Jesus is the ultimate answer to every need of life. True, a drug addict may still need therapy and medical attention. But motivation and power to truly change comes from Jesus. Perhaps this guy just went about it the wrong way. Perhaps he understood Jesus to be a tool to use, instead of a Lord to whom to surrender.
I'm angry with him, and very disappointed. But, maybe there is still hope.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (12:18 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
I agree, we must leave the validity of one's comversion to judgment day.
"Tough" is just not a natural part of my psyche or personality. But you are right, the best kind of love for this guy would be "tough love." His mom talks a good game, but I think she gives in far too much. Maybe the best way for me to minister to him is to encourage his mother.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (12:24 pm)
Reply to: True
Thanks, true. Points so good they had to be made twice!
"Sometimes you have to bust out the whip..." Eloquent way to put it.
Thanks for reminding me that he does, deep down inside somewhere, want to change. Just not strong enough, consistent enough.
I'll give him a few days, and then look him up. What I want him to know is that I will be there, when no one else will be. That time is coming.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (12:27 pm)
Reply to: guerillafunk
Moms can get rather irrational and defensive when it comes to their children. True! I know to tread softly with her. She may say the right things, but it is best to just listen and not affirm too much. She will give in to him again; that has been the pattern. I'd like to break this cycle of enabling on her part, for the good of both.
Thanks. Pretty insightful.
posted by:
yellowsubmarine (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (2:43 pm)
im not the most righteous person around, but i do remember something my mum told me when she was really giving up hope on my brother. she said it was the love of Christ that kept her holding on to the hope things will improve even though she could have given up earlier. she said to see him as Christ would. all the best PD. hope all works out.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (4:17 pm)
I don't know about righteous, but that a rather divine comment, I think. Thanks. Maybe unconditional love, applied with wisdom, is what this guy most needs. Thanks.
posted by:
LadyG (
reply)
post date:
02.09.06 (11:25 pm)
PastorDave,
I have a man in my church like that. this man is also my delivery driver and a close family friend. I have written about him in my blogs several times.He is the one that totally wreckrd a womans car first night he met her, just got out of jail yesterday after serving 45 days, was caught dui. he lost his car, drivers license suspended for a year.This guy is 35yrs. old and just don't won't to grow up.He has hurt and manipulated his poor mom so much but she don't know how to tell him no. These men need tough love
in their lives.He came back to work today, he can't drive but he makes the most beautiful floral designs. The right side of his brain works beautifully,But the left side is kaput.They never change.before being arrested he was living in his car, because he had to save his money for partying.
posted by:
trina (
reply)
post date:
02.10.06 (5:20 am)
Alot of good advice here. I really liked what kurtmaddox and true said. Ditto for me too.
Keep us posted.
posted by:
21CC (
reply)
post date:
02.10.06 (6:57 am)
Hey Pastor Dave,
first, I want to say that you are really a great servant of our Lord. I admire you for not giving up, but I can understand your fursteration. Like someone else said, he must, to an extent, help himself. Also, don't get taken advantage of...I would not doubt that he is using the Bible as a crutch. His faith mustn't have been that strong if the temptation of his old ways slowly overtook his life once again.
posted by:
Isaac (
reply)
post date:
02.13.06 (7:33 am)
This man's foundation in Jesus Christ is built on sand. I have been working a job I've hated for a year and a week or two now and I don't intend to leave until the Lord's satisfied with my discipline there.
Unless the man sees his face dirty and in need of cleaning through the mirror of the law, he will not turn. He has to die to the old man and bury him and take up the newness of the Spirit in Christ Jesus with a new heart, new desires, and new will to do what pleases Jesus. And what's written in scripture, if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat.
Go to:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Ray_Comfort/
...and try the first message on for size.
posted by:
Isaac (
reply)
post date:
02.13.06 (7:36 am)
Reply to: kurtmaddox This isn't what Jesus did. ;-). He had compassion where no one would dare: He said to forgive your brother seventy times seven. Tough love isn't cutting them off from need. It's using the weight of the law to expose the light from the outside through God's window into their heart to expose the dust there that needs to be cleaned. The tough love is by the law. That's what Jesus did to the rich young ruler that ran up to Him in Mark 10 and whatnot.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
02.13.06 (8:19 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
every situation is brand new bc at any given moment the Spirit ca work change in this guy (or any of us). we cant afford to approach real relationships with a sense of pragmatism. to do so would be fake imo.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.13.06 (5:21 pm)
Reply to: yellowsubmarine
A mama never gives up, does she? I believe the Bible describes the love of God like that of a mother for her child.
And I should not give up on this guy either. But not enable him.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.13.06 (5:23 pm)
Reply to: LadyG
Living in his van so he can save money for partying?
Now this is somebody you obviously cannot change, just love. I think of a man I knew in the past. He lived in an old school bus out in the woods. Nice guy. But he drank himself into the grave. Slowly and sadly. Would not be changed.
Sometimes, though, the story has a happy ending.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.13.06 (5:25 pm)
Reply to: 21CC
Well, the old "70 times 7" instruction about forgiveness comes into play, even with a unattractive fellow like this. Maybe he wll catch on at about the 489th time.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.13.06 (5:28 pm)
Reply to: Isaac
I do see a place for professional counselling/therapy, and certainly for medical doctors. They are not our exclusive source of help, but they are tools that God can use to bring healing. Luke was a physician. This man has emotional and psychological needs. And, most of all, he has a need for the Lordship of Christ.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
02.13.06 (5:28 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
Thank you. You are right.
posted by:
Isaac (
reply)
post date:
02.14.06 (4:13 am)
Jesus says,
"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him;
and if he repent, forgive him." Then He says seventy times seven in the next verse of Luke Chapter 17.
So it's very good for you to admonish and correct him, as a pastor, and then forgive him when you visit him in jail and he repents over the phone.
Then, He also says, "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
So even though it may be hard, you have to forgive him if he does repent, but you have to let him know that he's done wrong first.
posted by:
Isaac (
reply)
post date:
02.14.06 (4:18 am)
Read this message, "Hell's Best Kept Secret - " http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Ray_Comfort/
I wouldn't talk to them any other way besides how the Lord talked to someone.
