posted by:
darksaber (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (6:59 am)
I never saw it, but I always thought it was odd the homosexuality aspect was so touted when they also had wives and families. I didn't think they were going to promote homosexuality at the expense of loved ones.
-Revan
posted by:
scarlettgkpi (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (7:19 am)
Again, I simply cannot agree with homosexuality and neither can I bring myself to encourage someone to do so if they feel it is the right choice. If someone reads the Bible, they would clearly see that it is wrong and forbidden. God does not encourage or sanction homosexuality so why should I? This does not mean I will be cruel to those who choose this lifestyle. This means that I regard it as sinful and wrong in every Christian sense of the word. Again- I'll probably be berated for this but I'm willing to stand my ground.
posted by:
ruined (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (7:21 am)
Very well said. Doesn't matter if you're gay or straight... messing around and dishonesty to your mate is still unforgiveable and highly damaging. At least the movie was well written enough to show the consequences. This type of behavior usually does end with some pretty empty feelings.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (7:56 am)
forget for a moment the homosexual issue in the movie and whats left? the story of two guys ruining their marriages and families over adulterous liasons. trusting wives are deceieved and betrayed. childrens needs for father figures are placed 2nd to sexual desires. the casualty list in this movie goes far beyond jacks death. people get hurt bc these two guys are sinful creatures.
like the rest of us.
we hurt each other all the time. we sin and make crappy choices and deceieve and betray and lose our sense of whats really important. but is this any reason to champion a movie about it? maybe. bc it shows the disaster that befalls these sinful choices. it shows the pain and agony of those left in the wake. in this way its not much different than some bible stories i could mention - like the one about the king who committed adultery and got a girl prego - and then tried to hide it by getting the womans husband to come home and be with her - and then when that didnt work? had him killed. that man was called a man after Gods own heart.
but to come back to the point - im still not going to seethis movie bc i dont need to. ive got all the story its trying to tell in the scriptures i read every day. and if thats not enough ive experienced enough hurt from similar crap to know that i dont need a movie re-enforcing that pain.
so yah thats my thots on it...
posted by:
funkadelichika (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (9:44 am)
I havent seen the movie but I have seen some of the award shows. People are hailing it as a movie that is innovative and one of the best and most inspirational movies of all time. Apparently no other movie comes close to addressing many issues and to getting across a message. Oh uh wait what message does it get across? From what I can tell it says follow every whim and fancy you have have no self control and destroy your family and others families as well. Yeah that is really putting out a positive message for the homosexuals of our time and it makes me have so much hope for integrity too!
posted by:
carcinogen (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (12:42 pm)
Its easy to condem someone for hiding their sexuality. "Just be gay if you're gonna be gay!" "Don't cheat on your spouse!" etc. But the sad fact is that most people in American society don't make it easy to be homosexual. And especially rural American Wyoming. I live in Wyoming, have most of my life. As a matter of fact, this movie didn't even come to most of the theaters in the entire state. I lived in Laramie at the time of Matt Shepard, and while there were only 2 assailants in his murder, a suprising amount of people shared the same mindset as the attackers. I would hear comments from people about how that should happen to all homosexuals. Or some said it was a just warning to the gay community to stay out of Wyoming. So imagine trying to fit in to a closenit society while hiding your sexuality out of fear. Yet at the same time having an intense emotion such as love constantly beckoning you. I feel bad for those many people who feel they have to hide behind false marriges. I wish too that someone who is gay could simply be gay. I wish that a guy could say "thats my boyfriend" and not worry about the looks and the hatred. We preach hatred and mask it in love.
It always amazes me that homosexuality is singled out so much. For there is only one unforgivable sin, and that is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. So if all sins are equal in the eyes of God, why are you all not complaining about "Indecent Proposal", "The Graduate", "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure", or any other movie that doesn't show a sin as a sin? And since none of you have lied, had pre-marital sex, gossiped, said hurtful things, taken the lord's name in veign...well, completely without sin, you are ok to make judgements, but the for rest, perhaps some introspective work should be done.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (1:00 pm)
Reply to: carcinogen
lets just say for the sake of our discussion that these two cowboys are real people.
its not making a judgment to agree with what God calls a sin. making a judgment would be condemning these guys to hell for their sins and no one in this discussion has done that afaict. only God can do so.
personally i could care less if two lonely cowboys are gay. my contention from the beginning has been that their choices have caused hurt and pain to others. gay or not when someone steps outside their marriage for sexual satisfaction or even emotional satisfaction it is wrong. it betrays the trust of your spouse and goes directly against the very vow you take when you get married. so they could have been sheep-humpers for all i care - what they did to their wives and families was wrong and sinful. if these guys wanted each other they should never have taken marriage vows to begin with. they could have stayed single and hooked up whenever they wanted or were able without hurting others.
are they going to hell? only God knows bc only he knows their hearts. scripture tells us that repentance of sin is key in a relationship with God so its safe to say that if either of these guys repented and turned to God they would be saved and if they didnt they wouldnt - regardless of who they have been in bed with.
its really simple.
posted by:
yellowsubmarine (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (2:44 pm)
hmmm...i had a friend who was gay who stopped coming to church cause he was so afraid people would reject him. i've never seen him in almost 3 years.
posted by:
yellowsubmarine (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (2:45 pm)
i meant i havent seen him in almost 3 years
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (4:52 pm)
Reply to: darksaber
Here would be the reasoning:
These men are gay by nature, not choice. But they are born into an intolerant culture. As children they are encouraged to repress their natural sexuality and try to be like others, heterosexual. So they do their best to comply. This includes marriage and children. However, they cannot successfully repress their homosexuality because it is parcel to who they really are. So they are forced by their natures to be unfaithful to their spouses. It is not their fault. It is the fault of an unfair situation forced upon them. They are victims. Their wives and children are to be forgotten, because it is all about them.
Such, I believe, to be the convoluted logic.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (4:58 pm)
Reply to: scarlettgkpi
If someone thinks he/she may be gay, would you encourage them to repress it and marry as a heterosexual, and even to have children? I think it would be wiser to deal with their struggle than to repress it. Repressing something is not dealing with it. I believe Jesus, in Revelation 3, condemns the church of Laodicea for being neither hot or cold, but lukewarm. To walk the pathway of compromise is not pleasing to God.
I am asking that anyone who chooses rebellion to the clear teachings of the Christian scriptures at least be forthright about it, and not pretend otherwise.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (5:01 pm)
Reply to: ruined
I do not know the statistics, but I would like to know- in the gay community, is there a statistical level of faithfulness to one's mate/lover that is equal to that in the heterosexual community?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (5:04 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
A good book, movie, or song is not neccessarily a pleasant or fun experience. Sometimes it disturbs you. Same with a sermon, or a reading from the scriptures, or expecially an encounter with God. Still, these experiences will enrich us. Same, I think, with a movie like this one. Those who relegate movies to entertainment only are shortchanging themselves. Perhaps even being shallow.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (5:09 pm)
Reply to: carcinogen
Who said living with integrity will be easy? Here is someone who is gay. Being gay does not negate the need to treat others with love. A gay person is not allowed to use other people, or treat them with disrespect. And, it is just a fact that some people have tougher situations in life than other. Some or born to privilege and some are born to poverty. And some decide they are gay (I say it is a lifestyle choice, you say it is a matter of innate nature). The integrity matter concerns what you do with it. To live a lie and destroy others is wrong.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (5:19 pm)
Reply to: yellowsubmarine
With the decision to embrace that one is gay are ramifications. If you are a member of a biblically-defined Christian fellowship, then you should expect there to be response to such behavior as being sinful. If you want to be gay and also be involved in a Christian fellowship, then you must expect to have to seek out an accepting body of believers. There are such churches.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (6:17 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
seems you mistook my statements to mean i only go in for movies as entertainment but i think if you read them again youll see thats not what i said at all.
posted by:
MidnightEpicure (
reply)
post date:
03.09.06 (8:28 pm)
okay, im sure a lot of things were said here, and forgive me if i repeat them. but i think the movie is telling people that to come out, as they call it, will only benefit you. a gay man cannot live a straight life. nor is it worth trying. god did not put us here to be miserable. if you are really struggling with something, change it. if your struggle is making the change, then you are probably a coward, and that does not set a good example for your peers. judging by your synopsis, this applies to these men.
again, the movie is saying "to hell with society. if youre gay, be gay, and youll be gay." pun very much intended. i love this language. take jack from will and grace for example. i cant even picture that man with a woman. and hes happy. in ancient japanese culture, it was not at all uncommon for a local daimyo or samurai to take a man or boy to bed with them. nor was it frowned upon by those who were aware. one thing the old japanese ways had down was sex. they were incredibly open about it. but thats off topic.
ill repeat myself once more- if youre gay, remove yourself from that closet.
posted by:
irishred (
reply)
post date:
03.10.06 (3:49 am)
Without homosexuality, or homosexual innuendos, we would not have many of our current television shows, jokes that they use, or movies for that matter. I find it hard to stomach that America "is not a tolerant society" when there are more highly publicized gay shows and movies than at any point in history. This movie is just one example. I agree with Revan's comment and really enjoyed your post.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
03.10.06 (11:05 am)
Reply to: irishred
Well, I'll comment more tomorrow, but from what I understand, this was not a movie "promoting" homosexuality any more than any other love story "promotes" heterosexuality. If society coming to grips with the fact that there are and always have been homosexuals, and that they too have lives worthy of examination is promotion? Then I'm certainly wrong.
posted by:
justinb (
reply)
post date:
03.10.06 (12:53 pm)
I saw the movie and came away from it with no mixed feelings whatsoever. Some seemed fairly 'offended' (a better word?) by the film, but I agree with irishred in that not only America, but other nations also have become more and more intolerant of difference in society. I really enjoyed your post dave, and thanks for keeping in touch.
posted by:
justinb (
reply)
post date:
03.10.06 (12:55 pm)
oh, by the way dave, I moved to wordpress becuase their servers seem more responsive than tblog's so doesn't take ages to make posts and whatever. Also I like how wordpress handle's comments and having multiple pages is also a nice feature. Thats why i moved Dave.
posted by:
Fairmoon (
reply)
post date:
03.11.06 (11:11 am)
well, everything i would have said has been said. people being gay doesn't bother me in the least. but messing around with family and kids- marrying when you feel you're suposed too, having kids for the same reason upsets me. be gay, or not be gay... whatever. but try not to harm others in the process.
FM
Lame post, but i'm sleepy.
posted by:
bacardibreezer (
reply)
post date:
03.12.06 (6:52 pm)
You contradicted yourself - you say everyone should be who they are, regardless of everyone else, church, gov't, friends, family etc.......then you go on to say you will push your beliefs on them because its a "sin" and wrong...so how can you sit there and say you honestly believe people should be what they are, but yet they need to be changed?
Everyone has different views on life and reality. It is NO ONE's place to tell anyone who they should be or what to believe. I am sick of the religious people (no offense) trying to convert everyone! Believe me, we know the church is there and if we were interested, we'd go. It's called choice and pushing it is against everything you just said - you're saying you should try to make someone somethign they are not - as in, "correcting" their "gayness".
Flat out wrong and disrespectful. You would feel much differently if society was more geared toward homosexuality.
posted by:
Ron A. Zajac (
reply)
post date:
03.14.06 (7:57 pm)
I saw Brokeback about 5 days ago, and just finished digesting it.
I think there's something here *particularly* germane to the evangelical community. Others in this forum have raised the "Let he who is without sin..." issue, and that's right.
Barna Research crunched the numbers and found that divorce among evangelicals is on a par with the rest of us. I think Brokeback is a Chinese puzzle for those who fancy themselves The Elect: Pull the "gay" piece out of the puzzle and the rest comes tumbling apart. To wit: You have to be honest before you can be reverent. Or, for that manner, before you can have meaningful, joyful, and lasting relationships with others. I hung around fundamentalists in Texas and found that they tragically tend to believe that denying what they feel to be true and what they think to be true is the path to Heaven; and these people are dead wrong. In another time, place, and sexual preference, Ennis Del Mar was Willie Loman, period. As others in this forum hint, I too think Jesus would say "Amen" to that.
posted by:
Sillygrrl3 (
reply)
post date:
03.20.06 (1:29 pm)
having been a female who was dating a christian man who shared his attraction with men (and his sleeping with them) with me, I think I know a little about the hurt that happens when a person portrays one thing and is another.
I am thankful he told me before we married (10 months before). I am thankful that I didn't marry him only to find out about a boyfriend or the 5-6 "slipups." I am thankful that I never slept with him. I am very thankful for many things.
But my heart still hurt from the deception. I still have a messed up head and don't trust ANYONE. I question my own judgement and the judgement of my friends (very good people who were "fooled" as well as I).
His choice affected me and still does today.
Kara
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.21.06 (12:28 pm)
Reply to: MidnightEpicure
I agree with you on the need for the gay person to be open about his sexuality. Knowing you are gay, yet marrying someone of the opposite sex and then having children, is selfish and unfair and I think revealing of a weak character.
Now, this matter of Japanese society and sex with boys is disgusting. I'm glad such behavior is criminal inour society. I think that surely you are not advocating such.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.21.06 (12:30 pm)
Reply to: irishred
Thanks irish. Obviously, very obviously, the entertainment media and hollywood have a pro-gay agenda. It's funny that so many, even here on t-blog, will try to convince you otherwise.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.21.06 (12:32 pm)
Reply to: justinb
Don't be so impatient, my friend. What is the difference in response time between wordpress and t-blog- maybe 2 seconds? I think you will find more interaction and community here at t-blog. Am I wrong?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.21.06 (12:35 pm)
Reply to: Fairmoon
True love always involves self-sacrifice. These 2 guys fail that test big-time.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.21.06 (12:46 pm)
Reply to: bacardibreezer
Thanks for your earnest response. I like it. I'll say a couple of things:
I do believe that to enter into a gay relationship is a sin. I base that upon my understanding of the Bible as it teaches the nature of proper human sexual behaviour. Therefore I believe that homosexuality is indicative of a severed connection with God and an unhealthy and eventually destructive act. Think about this: If I truly believe such, with my heart, and yet say and do nothing in response to the powerful message of a movie like Brokeback Mountain, then what would that be saying about me? If I would allow a person to injure himself and someone else without even saying a word of caution, when it would be within my opportunity to say something, then I must be callous and uncaring. You believe differently, and I understand. At least allow me to be consistent with my faith and actions.
And, just because I believe someone has the freedom to do something does not mean I believe that behaviur to be healthy or advisable. Like smoking. I do not believe the government has any right to outlaw an individual from smoking cigarettes. But I feel it is a disgusting habit. I'd want limits on smoking when the behavior comes to have an adverse effect on others. Same with gays and their behaviour. I think it is a sin, but I do not want the government to restrict, until someone's demand to be gay unfairly infringes upon my life.
In another post, another time, we should interact about the attitude/heart behind the person who tries to "evangelize" you. Their efforts may be irritating, but to me they also call for a begrudging respect.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.21.06 (12:54 pm)
Reply to: Ron A. Zajac
I assume these fundamentalist friends of yours, in Texas, were Christian Fundamentalists. They definely misunderstood a most basic of the Christian faith. The pathway to God is not found in good behaviour, but only within a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
You make a valid connection. So many of the evangelical community rant against homosexuality, when the divorce statistics within Christianity are as high, or maybe a tad higher, than the secular community.
This idea that you cannot criticize the sins of another, if you are a sinner, is invalid. The big issue is not whether or not you are a sinner, but what is your attitude toward your sin? Repentant? Seeking, more and more, the Lordship of Jesus Christ? Now if you are living in open rebellion against the clear will of God, then of course you need to get your own house in order. But we cannot wait until we are perfect before we try to make the world a better place.
I do enjoy your very smart comments, and hope you will come this way again. I don't know everything, for sure.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
03.21.06 (12:58 pm)
Reply to: Sillygrrl3
You certainly live an interesting life! Thank you for letting us in on some of your challenges. This guy is to be commended for being honest with you before going deeper in relationship. Did he choose to break off the relationship, or was it your choice? Was he willing to forsake all, for the rest of his life, for you? If no, then he was not ready for marriage. Gay or straight.
posted by:
Sillygrrl3 (
reply)
post date:
03.22.06 (8:06 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
The mechanics of who did what are fuzzy in my head. I knew he had slept with someone a few months before we started dating. He portrayed it to be a female.
That is how things were - he would share a piece of a story then if I "took it well" I would get the next piece. Never the whole thing. So after that didn't faze me, he added that it was his boss. This was told to me a few weeks after the first announcement.
Then when he came to see me at Thanksgiving 2004 and then is when he told me it was his male boss who is married and has children.
I believe I was the one who finally said OUT LOUD that this wouldn't work.
Many hurtful words were said (from him to me) but I truly believe they are more a reflection of how he feels about himself. I try not to dwell on them.
The part that I haven't been able to move past is the trust. I knew him for 3-4 years before we dated. He said he wanted to marry me but I wasn't sure... there was something that didn't "sit right" with me.
If I didn't see it coming in him, how will I ever see anything untoward in anyone I meet/date?
And that is where I am today. It jacks innocent people when lies are at the heart of a relationship.
Kara
