posted by:
mimi (
reply)
post date:
05.03.06 (5:48 pm)
WOW! PDave! You are feeling very brave this evening : )
I personally agree with everything you said, but I would just like to interject one of my first thoughts as I read...
there are too many of us who equate physical love to emotional love...as a young woman, that is ...I thought every man(boy) that paid any attention to me, the unworthy one, must REALLY, REALLY love me...and my imagination turned that physical realtionship into the most wonderful of love stories...
there are lots of us out there...
with all due respect, of course.
xoox
posted by:
midnightepicure (
reply)
post date:
05.03.06 (6:25 pm)
brave, indeed haha.
in my thoughts on this matter, i think it's safe to say i differ from most of my standing. Teenage male, that is. I originally wanted to wait until marriage, until i realized that was only because i didnt have a girlfriend. like other worldly pleasures, one must engage before they can know. it is the difference between naivity and wisdom. but there is no name for never having touched alcohol, or never having tried any given drug. theres no title to hold on to, which is why i think it's not as precious in society's eyes.
however, this is not to say that i dont believe virginity is precious, because i do. im glad i waited as long as i did. i knew i loved my girlfriend, and i knew she loved me. i will not do it with anyone unless that fact stands true. i wanted to wait until marriage, and she wanted to wait a year. about 8 months in, it got... difficult. it was about this time i noticed that the only reason i thought waiting until marriage was going to be worth it was because i was so naive. so i caved and said her idea was better. a year was the deal, and a year we waited. i dont know how, but we did.
i'd say that its really to the discretion of the couple to decide, which i think should be obvious. what is going to be the deciding factor, is what marriage is viewed as. this could be an entire new post, but what do people really think marriage is?
to me, its not a lot more than a label, just like "dating." it's not permanant, like dating. it costs money, and a lot of it (like dating haha); that right there demeans it to me in a way. i know that it wouldn't have felt a whole lot different if we were married at certain points in our relationship, and we talked about it all the time (but trust me, im glad we didnt get that far.) to me, its just a sign of growing up, and settling down. the dating game is over, youre in it for the long haul. too many people jump into it, and i think thats why marriage isnt the best landmark in a relationship.
but if not marriage, then what? ideally, yes, marriage is THE landmark of a relationship. but tell me you've ever been in a relationship that has followed an ideal timeline, and ill shoot you in the foot. people marry for the wrong reasons, people date for the wrong reasons, people just do a lot of things... wrong. and thank god, if we were always right, we wouldnt learn a thing.
from personal experience, which is minimal seeing as how im a mere eighteen years of age, i'm pretty sure that sex is the gateway to marriage. where as sex is offering one's body, marriage is offering the remainder of one's life. which is more significant to you?
man, my comments are long. "brevity is the soul of wit." ~Polonius. him and I: brothers in long windedness.
posted by:
Misguided (
reply)
post date:
05.03.06 (6:41 pm)
I wish i would of had more people in my life 2 tell me that having sex with someone would later have u thinking man what did i do and why did i do it with that one....If i could turn back time i would have waited and made the first time mean so much more then it did...I am not sayin u should or u should not have sex 2 each there own...but i will share my thoughts with my kids and let them know u can wait..there is no hurry
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.03.06 (6:44 pm)
Reply to: mimi
Ah, I'd say you are a romantic. And you remind me of one of the fundamental differences between adolescent guys and gals- the young ladies are thinking "love and romance" as the guys are thinking "sex sex sex". And many times a guy will tell a lie to get sex. That's just a fact. it's not saying the guy is terrible- just that he seems to have a direct link between his eyes and his libido.
This struggle with sexuality and maturity is a great reason why a teenager should wait until he/she is older before sexual relations.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.03.06 (6:47 pm)
Reply to: Misguided
You are right on both points, I think. We cannot dictate to anyone how to conduct his life. Just make suggestions. And, sexual relations should be special, much more than recreation.
And, I fear very much that my kids will do some of the foolish things that I did.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.03.06 (6:54 pm)
Reply to: midnightepicure
I think you have some very good insights, and a lot more thoughtful than I was at age 18!
I have high respect for marriage. That's why, when my teenage daughter got pregnant, I did not think it wise to marry the guy. The pregnancy was the result of sex, pure and simple. Not love. And without love, a marriage is doomed. And marriage is to be a permanent and exclusive commitment between two people who have to be with one another.
Thank you for your conviction that true love should accompany sexual relations. I'm convinced Mimi has a great point, that many times infatuation and lust are mistaken for love. And, some people are aware of such and end up using others for personal pleasure. That is especially wrong.
I appreciate that, so far, the replies have been thoughtful and encouraging of dialog. I'm still looking for someone to blast me and call me an idiot!
posted by:
Cuz (
reply)
post date:
05.03.06 (7:18 pm)
You're saying it's what is best. But really...Preachers and SS Teachers teach abstinence all the time...how many of them(if married)lived it? Is it right for them to teach it if they didn't? I know forgiveness, the slate being cleaned....I'm asking morally. A "statement of respect for sexuality"...Really.
I gather many teens claim abstinence because it helps them deal with the fact that they don't have girl/boy friends. Once they become part of a couple it's a whole new story.
Hormones kick in, yada yada...they give in, do it and don't feel badly about it.
I know some people that seem to think in order not to have sex outside of marriage they must marry, then the marriage sux, they divorce, and there they go again..a cycle of broken marriages...but oh it's alright because they've only had sex with a spouse?
This is much more fun than picking an avatar and a nice change from politics. Careful watching those birds...voyeur.
posted by:
cherryblossmgrl (
reply)
post date:
05.03.06 (11:10 pm)
I liked this post, I respect the opinions. First I'll say that my current boyfriend shared his virginity with me, him being 21 and us waiting until we were together for 6 months. I felt extremely guilty that I didn't save myself for him. But you can't change the past, I guess. Admittedly, I did not deeply love the other two boyfriends I had sex with. I was a teenager, etc. It takes a lot of faith and willpower to save that part of you ... good post PastorDave.
posted by:
scubadiva (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (4:28 am)
Pastor Dave -
Were you abstinent until marriage? And where do you draw the line with abstinence? Is it kissing, anything above the clothes, etc?
And what if you have utterly no desire to a) get married or b) have children? I wholeheartedly admit that I'm not a virgin but don't regret the choices I've made.
posted by:
bacardibreezer (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (8:25 am)
Ok here's my take on this.
I don't believe virginity is the physical breaking of the hymen. For one thing, I started gymnastics when I was 7. I bet you anything it was broken through those activities. I slept with 5 guys before I finally got to be with the guy I love. I felt like that was when I actually gave myself away. Although we are not together anymore, I really did give that to him, and it really meant the world to us, at the time.
Also, the thing I don't like about what you say is, you are telling the female it's going to be all great and amazing when you do it your honeymoon night or whenever, when in reality, it's going to just hurt like a bitch, no enjoyment the first time at all. You can't build them up like that. It'll hurt so bad you won't be concentrating on that.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (8:54 am)
Reply to: Cuz
I will deal with the right of an imperfect person to discuss this matter in response to another blogger. Check it out!
I think a person can make a re-commitment to purity in sexual relations. We all do unwise things. We all "sin". If there is growth in understanding, forgiveness, then surely there can be renewal. Some of the best advocates of healthy marriage are people who have been through divorce. I have heard some great preachers who spent time in prison. I heard a riveting challenge for abstinence from alcohol from a man who killed someone while drinking-and-driving.
We learn, we grow, we hopefully become wiser with time. So why not a recommitment to sexual purity from someone who has strayed and learned, and wants to do better with the rest of his/her life?
You write of those who marry because they are burning to have sex. I think that is foolish. A big reason for sexual abstinence before marriage is for the couple to get to know one another on a level other than just the physical. So you come to admire and love this person for who he/she is, not for how she looks or how good she is is bed. So, if you get even a hint that someone is wanting to marry you because of lust, it would be wise to run far and not look back.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (9:00 am)
Reply to: cherryblossmgrl
Thank you. To say that you "respect" another's opinion is probably one of the greatest compliments you can give a fellow blogger. You do not have to agree, or even like what is shared. But to say I understand what you have said to be thoughtful, genuine, and valid is to show respect. And that is the attitude I want to portray concerning the opinions of others. I do not think all opinions are of equal truth. Some are flat wrong. Still, if they are thoughtful then they deserve to be treated respectfully.
You write of the need for "faith" and "willpower". Neither are easy! And, of course, all things worthwhile require hard work.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (9:23 am)
Reply to: scubadiva
I will get to your original question at the end.
Where do you draw the line with abstinence? I think that is a good question, and I think it is pretty clear where my answer will be. Recently Sharon Stone, who made a terrible movie, encouraged young people to abstain from intercourse and just have oral sex. I think I have a sensible understanding of sexual abstinence. I don't think kissing is sexual intercourse. Still, I don't think even kissing should be indiscriminate. It should be shared between 2 people who respect one another and know one another, and have a clear understanding of physical parameters in their relationship. I think to take the attitude that I will get as close to the act without the actual event is silly and dangerous. One knows, for himself, the point when affection can easily turn to uncontrolled lust.
I think it is fair for a person to make the choice not to get married and not to have children. Still, I believe, sexual union to be a wonderful gift calling for special parameters. And to live within those parameters is to show respect for the gift and the Giver. I'm not intending to condemn any person. But I may be offering a wonderful standard for behaviour worth consideration. Are you surprised that would be my opinion?
You ask me, "Were you abstinent before marriage?" I think you get the idea that I am standing in a pulpit with a long finger pointed at you in condemnation and judgment, and a shaky voice condemning you! Please believe that is not my intent. Now, when it comes to preaching, I have asked myself if I have the right to proclaim a message that I do not perfectly adhere to myself. Take any issue of life, and I will guarantee you I am not perfect with it. And Jesus made that point in the Sermon on the Mount when her further refined the commandments about Adultery and Murder. We are all guilty, including myself.
But, the validity of a standard of morality does not rise or fall according to my success in keeping it. It is based upon something higher than my behaviour. Even if I do not love others as I should, you still should do your very best to fulfill the Great Commandment to "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Even if the preacher is a hypocrite with his sermon. Same with the 10 Commandments, etc. And, same I believe with sexual morality. Whether I abstained before mariage, or not, does not determine the validity of the point. It should stand or fail on its own merit, not because of my good or bad example.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (9:37 am)
Reply to: bacardibreezer
Ah, my favorite "wild" blogger! I think it is neat how you and I, who are very different, can communicate rationally and kindly as we have been able to do for some time now. Thanks for venturing into this specific issue and offering an opinion.
Sexual virginity? I think a virgin is someone who has not had intercourse. And, as far as the pain of that first experience, I think a quick trip to a family physician can do a lot to keep that from happening. Of course, I am not much of an expert on the female anatomy. And I guess someone can visit your blog if they want to know more!
One point I am seeking to make is to elevate the sexual union, male and female, beyond the physical. It is intended, I think, to be a mystical union between two people who truly love one another and want to share the most intimate of gifts. I'll even say that purely recreational sex, while it may feel good, is not healthy for the human soul. It's cheap, and cheapening. Our Creator made us to do better.
posted by:
Deviant1 (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (1:22 pm)
Naturally people's own lives are there own to live. If I find anything at all sacred it is that.
Many people choose never to get married and I do not see why they should miss out on a fundamental part of the human experience for making that choice. I also just can't see why, without being married/finding their life partner, sex necessarliy becomes reduced to a "mechanical endevour". Because you may not be able to understand that without a cultural ceremony to monogamy does not negate what can be a beautiful and magical union between two people does not make it so.
Lifelong monogomy is actually for very few. I'd be amazed if any more than 5% of the population actually did that. Without a doubt many people make bad choices in this regard. I certainly don't advocate making bad choices. Nor do I advocate bowing to cultural pressure (say from a religious institution) or the status quo in general, for making choices that goes against who they are.
We all have morals but not all morals are the same. To presume moral superiority is to presume to know something that you do not.
posted by:
mercuryrising (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (2:51 pm)
I totally agree with you on this PD. Although I did not wait and could not think about anything else until I finally did, I would do anything to take it back and have saved myself for my husband. I think the urge we have for it, especially while we are still teens has a lot to do with sex being so common, ya know.. like tv, mags and such, it's everywhere and they all say .. it's ok..it's natural.. so just do it. That kind of pressure while growing up is exactly what made me go ahead and share that special moment with someone I havent seen since :( ... good post, and so important.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (5:58 pm)
Reply to: Deviant1
I do like your interaction. It is thoughtful. And your opposition sticks to the matter at hand, and does not get unnecessarily personal. I really would like for you to go to the trouble to set up a blog-site on T-blog, and then start blogging and interacting with the rest of us. You would add quality to what is going on here. I would benefit.
Now, I would like to make two responses to what you have said:
I do not think a person's life is intended to belong to himself, to do with as he pleases. I believe we belong to our Creator, and our lives are intended to be lived for His purpose and His glory. He has made us, and we find true purpose only in connection with Him. So you and I have a fundamental difference concerning the purpose of life.
Secondly, I am not a moral relativist. I do not believe all moral approaches to life are of equal value. I believe the Judeo-Christian value system to be superior. If the Bible is the Word of God, and the values come from the heart of God, then following them is best. I do not think I am personally superior to any other person- each of us is made in the image of God. But I believe specifically that Christian values are superior to contradictory worldly values.
Having disagreed with you, let me emphasize that I do benefit from a thoughtful challenge to my point of view. Some think I am pretty closed-minded, narrow, etc. I think such persons have never met a fundamentalist Christian- then they would know what a closed mind truly is about. I will consider what you have to say. And if it is the Truth, then somewhere along the way it may just sink into my thick skull! So again I encourage a thoughtful person like yourself to stay with us.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (6:02 pm)
Reply to: mercuryrising
You sure make the point well. Teenagers are naturally "horny" (I'll just use the word!) and so often manipulated by the media. Being a teenager is tough. And we all have messed up along the way. I am very thankful for the presence of Grace. So many have forgiven me and offered to me another chance, when I did not deserve such. And God's grace has been my only hope for so long. I'm glad God forgives, and uses imperfect persons.
Thanks, mercury. I'll wander on over and check out your blog in a while.
posted by:
Cuz (
reply)
post date:
05.04.06 (7:00 pm)
I'm certainly learning about you Dave. I have to agree with some other commenters...there was pain, clumbsyness, feeling not only awkward...but foolish too, it was not a spiritual connetion.
Maybe others had a better experience, but I just can't rate it a spiritual experience. A visit to the doctor doesn't always take care of things either.
posted by:
scubadiva (
reply)
post date:
05.05.06 (2:44 am)
Congratulations on the new wheels. You don't strike me as the Corvette type, but you are always surprising me. :)
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
05.05.06 (2:51 am)
I know many many people who feel strongly that sex should be reserved for the marriage bed. I only know one person who actually waited. Her sex life was so bad with her husband that the marriage lasted less than three years.
There IS a happy medium for young people.
The assumtion that true love ensures sexual compatibility between people is a nice fantasy and easy for people to preach about, but is, unfortunately, patently absurd, regardless of what people "believe."
To me, I'd much rather people make sure the person they love is at least in the same part of the book as they are, if not on the same page before they make promises to each other and the world and even God, for that matter.
For the most part, show me people who really "save" themselves, even for each other, and I'll show you a marriage that has a much smaller chance of being a happy one for both parties, even if they stay married to each other for 50 years.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
05.05.06 (5:27 am)
Reply to: surrogate
We are moving far beyond my level of expertise, or even rudimentary knowledge, with this discussion! But I would think that sexual compatibility would be a learned behaviour. And surely it would be a matter far down the line of importance for ensuring a good marriage. Communication, commitment, common interests, personality compatibility, faith compatibility, etc.- these I think would be far more important. And I have tried to say that involvment in the act of sex is not the same thing as healthy sexual connection. So a person may have had many partners, yet be bad with sex. And I'm not talking about endurance, knowing all the positions of the kama sutra, orgasms, etc. I just think sex is far more than a physical act.
You know, I'm kind of uncomfortable talking about this! And, that's my hangup I think. Why in the world did I do this post?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
05.06.06 (6:50 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Yes, there is way more to marriage than sex. And I'm not talking about being "good" or "bad" in bed, or being promiscuous. Some people are simply not compatible with each other and it seems a damn shame to me that people commit to a life of lousy lovemaking for the sake of an ideal that has little to do with love and fidelity AFTER marrying. In fact, to me? -- it's irresponsible. If you love someone enough to want to spend your life with them, better make sure that you enjoy each other's private company if you're hoping to endure each other once the fireworks subside to cap-guns and sparklers... and anyone who says they don't subside from time to time, is simply lying.
