posted by:
therealspartacus007 (
reply)
post date:
06.26.06 (3:57 pm)
Atheism means 'without belief in a deity.' I am an agnostic atheist.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
06.26.06 (4:33 pm)
I believe that human beings have a deep yearning to make sense of the fact of our existence and our seemingly unique ability to be aware of ourselves, our thoughts, our actions and our mortality. I believe this deep yearning has given rise to many explanations concerning our origin and concerning what, if any, meaning our individuals lives have in the scheme of things. I believe what began as a primal urge to make sense of existence has memetically evolved into extraordinarily rich and powerful co-adapted meme complexes we know as the world's great religions. Thousands and thousands lesser belief systems, of course, exist in the minds and hearts of mankind and have since the beginning of human communication. Most of these minor faiths either continue on in anonymity and most eventually fade into oblivion. As with all human systems, an never ending stream of new memetic adaptations arise within various communities and sects. Very few of new cults differ very much from the old cults in terms of fundamentals. Most are fairly obtuse and innocuous. Some, however, become dangerously noxious to their adherents and to the communities where these adherents live with others who believe differently. A few gain political significance and, like all evolving market systems, these belief systems find just the right mix of standard morality, social consciousness, kindness, discipline and reason to become accepted by large numbers of believers across many cultures and geographies. These "great" religions have powerful unifying features mixed with compelling exclusive teachings about truth and the nature of things. Most of these systems demand absolute loyalty to their central beliefs including the most powerful memetic hook possible to the human mind -- the two-edged meme that one must believe a certain way to be rewarded with a positive eternal outcome and to be spared eternal damnation. This memetic hook is so powerful because it presents the human mind with an inescapable bargain -- all I must do is "believe" this certain thing and I will one day experience eternal bliss. This bargain of all bargains becomes even more irrestible when combined with the risk of eternal damnation for remaining undecided.
For hundreds of years, the major world religions remained primarily seperated from one another as the most powerful belief systems emerged in a Darwinian style process to become accepted by great numbers of human beings in specific cultures. The most powerful of these religions would spread in a viral fashion to further and further reaches of the planet until eventually finding their natural memetic enemy -- the similarly evolved but mutually exclusive co-adapted meme complex that had gained similar power and influence in the minds of thousands and sometimes millions and now billions of believers who discover that there are other humans who believe just as passionately about a "God" who goes by another name and who teaches a mysteriously similar yet altogether contridictory "truth" about existence, man's place in the universe and the demands of "God" on humankind.
This great memetic battle will never leave us and will never be resolved. As with all things in our observable universe, belief will continue to evolve. New religions will become very powerful and old religions to die very slow deaths or be absorbed into the new dominant beliefs in ways similar to how Judaism, from a social science perspective, has been absorbed into Christianity.
So, this is what I believe -- I believe that if something like our concept of "God" created us that this "Creator" will not hold it against me that witheld my own memetic judgement from the fray and, instead, chose to follow the only path I could figure out using my human capabilities -- that of reason and humility!
Therefore, my prayer continues to be, "My God, I beg You with all humility to forgive my ignorance and to accept me with all my imperfections. I am but a man who understands that I exist I try to do the best with this existence as I able. Amen."
posted by:
javageek (
reply)
post date:
06.26.06 (4:57 pm)
In the immortal words of Stan, Kyle, and Kenny - I think I'll sit this one out!
posted by:
seochris (
reply)
post date:
06.26.06 (6:57 pm)
I believe in the existence of the Almighty God i.e Thiesm.
I believe He has revealed Himself to us thru His son Jesus and He continually abides with us thru His Holy Ghost. Also I believe He will come again.
Thanks for the info Pastor.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (1:22 am)
Reply to: therealspartacus007
When we get to using and defining words, it can at times get tricky, because words have different meanings to different people. In my understanding, there's a juxtaposition between "atheist" and "agnostic". I find it difficult to see where one can be both. An atheist has made a decision- there is no god. But, an agnostic is saying the choice cannot be made; one cannot know.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (1:26 am)
Reply to: javageek
Google is an amazing tool. It tells me your three characters are from South Park. I had no idea, for I am but vaguely familiar with the show. So, I've learned something. And I appreciate your willingness to at least sit aside this little blog and observe. I'll return the favour.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (1:29 am)
Reply to: seochris
So, I guess your belief system would include #6. You are a trinitarian.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (1:45 am)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
So, you do not move past #1, the struggle between agnosticism and belief. I sense that you want to believe, but you do not know. And if I understand you, you accept this to be the great spiritual dynamic within the heart of every honest searcher.
I guess I do not have as much faith/respect for my fellow-man. I'm afraid most never bother to make the search, but simply accept what they are told about God, or what most conveniently serves them in their societies. My mission, as a Christian, is to hopefully be used of God's Spirit to draw people into considering a true need/relationship with Him through Jesus.
I think, except for my understanding that God has chosen to reveal self through Jesus Christ, I would most likely be a deist. Still, at times, it is easy for me to drift into understanding God to be Prime Mover who is now detached, an uninterested observer. So often He seems that way. But the message I believe is that God became a man, and revealed His message and His heart through that person.
There's a big gap between points 1 & 6. A leap of faith.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (4:18 am)
These sort of debates wear me out... They feel so pointless. "I believe..."
I find myself saying, "Um, okay. So? Whoopee for you." I know that sounds crass but I'm a lot more interested in what people's beliefs cause them to do in life: how does it help others? Simply advancing one's own beliefs for their own sake seems like so much tripe to me, and more-so as I get older. Okay, you believe God revealed himself to man through Jesus, and people who don't believe that are wrong. Got it. So? It's like "If everyone believed what I believe then the world would be hunky-dory, and even if it's not, the world doesn't matter much anyway, only the hereafter, and further, you'd BETTER believe what I say or you'll rot in hell..."
I don't get it. And I pray to God I never do, at least that way.
I'm tired of "I'm right and you're wrong, and my proof is right here!" (points to a thick book compiled in compromise and translated as was convenient to the translators...)
I love not knowing what's unknowable.
Geez, this reads as cynical, but it's not meant to.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (4:57 am)
Reply to: surrogate
If I were forced to adopt slogans from the Big Religions, I'd go with the following:
1. My religion is kindness. ~ 14th Dalai Lama
2. Whatever you have done to the least of these, you have done unto me. ~Yeshua Bin Joseph
3. ...let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
~The Gospel of John
4. If possible, do good. If not, at least, strive to do no harm. ~Primary Buddhist Teaching
5. It doesn't matter who we are down deep inside -- it is what we do that makes us who we are. ~Paraphrase from "Batman Begins"
OK... that last one isn't from a major religion, but, it could be. I will suggest, however, that any human being could just as easily live a "holy" life by living out the philosophical precepts from "Batman Begins" as well as they could from a major religion.
Holy Bat-Doctrine, Batman!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (5:41 am)
Reply to: surrogate
I'm not trying to wear you out. And I agree that what you believe about God should make a positive difference in how you live your life. Gee, since you are JESUS, you surely know that!
The purpose of this little exercise is to, perhaps, more clearly formulate how one understands God to be. Surely most all believers have a concept of God.
And I do have a huge suspicion that we most likely get it wrong when we start trying to pigeonhole God. He understand us, while we serve Him.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (5:44 am)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
If you are talking about human effort to live according to a set of beliefs/doctrines, then maybe you are right. Batman Begins may not be quite as good as The Book Of Mormon, but I understand what you are saying. However, when religion is set aside for relationship with God, then Batman doesn't hold a candle. Jesus Christ is God's bridge to mankind, and He desires relationship far more than religion.
posted by:
drforbush (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (11:12 am)
Ok Pastor Dave, I can get through the first three questions, but to me it doesn't really make any difference in the choices of the last three questions.
For example, in question 4 you claim that it makes a difference if God is part of nature or beyond nature. From a basic physics point of view, He must be part of nature if He interacts with nature. The question can't really be put in those terms. If God is completely beyond nature, completely supernatural, He can not interact with nature. He could be beyond nature but have some natural attribute that He allows to interact with nature. You don’t allow the possibility that God is beyond nature but the Universe is a small attribute of God. That actually makes more logical sense, because then God would use a small piece of himself to create the Universe, and hence has an interest in it. If He was completely beyond the Universe, why would He have any interest in it at all?
I have similar problems with your other questions.
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (2:01 pm)
#1. I know there is a God.
#2 Theist
#3 Monotheist. although, there is the possibility that the monotheism that i profess CAN include my GOD who perhaps presents him/itself to others in a different perspective. not being omnipotent myself, i cannot rule this out.
#4. definately supernaturalist. the other smacks of gnosticism which is currently trying to invade chritianity. and which i fight. alot
#5 revealed theism.
#6 trinitarian
agnostic vs atheist. you can be one, or the other, but not both. kind of like trying to be sort of pregnant. doesn't wash.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (3:09 pm)
Reply to: drforbush
Creatio ex nihilo is the classic Hebrew understanding of God's method of creation. He created from nothing, not even a piece of Himself. God's motivation for involvment in all things is simple choice.
I admit the questions are incomplete. It's just an interesting exercise.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (3:21 pm)
Reply to: fractalmom
Interesting insight concerning # 3. I guess God, being in charge, can reveal Himself in any way desired.
posted by:
drforbush (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (3:40 pm)
I guess I'll have to wait until God reveals 4, 5, or 6 to me. I'll just have to be happy to be a skeptic until then...
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (4:38 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Excuse me. Did you actually quote "Batman Begins" in this discussion?
Kurt, Kurt, Kurt. What will we do with you?
Cool quote though.
posted by:
kurtmaddox (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (6:14 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Well, I'd quote Ayn Rand directly but the either no one gets it or they take it as proof of my being a closet fascist ;-)
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.27.06 (6:46 pm)
Reply to: kurtmaddox
Oh hell, I've never thought of you as a CLOSET facist...
posted by:
ruined (
reply)
post date:
06.28.06 (6:55 am)
I don't like exercises like this one, because it leaves everything as black and white. Either you believe this, or you believe that. It's not always that easy. My beliefs do follow a basic pattern as outlined above, but there are days that those beliefs are challenged and I'm left trying to revamp my beliefs as I understand them.
I guess my beliefs can be narrowed down to this: I believe in a single God revealed by three personae (Father, Son, Spirit). From there, my views are constantly challenged and molded. And I view that as a good thing. That means I'm searching, attempting to understand, and sometimes failing in my attempts, which means I'm growing.
At least, I would like to believe as such... :)
posted by:
toztee (
reply)
post date:
06.28.06 (1:09 pm)
You say you like honesty and being "upfront" with thoughts and opinions so here's mine. I don't like this approach as a witnessing tool or discussion...it's makes for too many arguments and actually does nothing to give a positive outlook. To tell the truth...Man...this post made me want to pound you in the head. Nicely of course and with genuine southern politeness and in a loving Christian manner.
And by the way....I caught that line in your other post...If I want music with my TP...I'll have it. And NONYA!
posted by:
toztee (
reply)
post date:
06.28.06 (1:24 pm)
As for where my beliefs stand: There is but one God and of course I have placed my faith in him through his son, Jesus Christ...who blessed me with the Holy Spirit to lead, guide and teach me. My daily connection to him usually comes through reading the scriptures, prayer, meditating on Him and His Word, private and public times of Praising Him and Worshiping him with adoration.
As for DENOMINATIONAL ideas and differences...I have quite a few opinions...most, but probably not all in agreement of yours... I think denomination is not really biblical at its base roots. My Bible tells me the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, not being Baptist.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.28.06 (3:22 pm)
Reply to: toztee
You misconstrue the general intent of my blog. It is not an overt effort to "witness". With its post, I am sharing something interesting that I came across in my reading. It can be a help as one think about God. There are certain particulars that go into a "Christian" theology. I think these 6 are bedrock, although as others have pointed out, there are varying shades and nuances within all 6.
And, music with you toilet paper is a nice thing. Just try it.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (12:58 am)
Reply to: thunderthighs
There are many ways in which God chooses to reveal Himself. Nature. Human conscience. Love of His followers. But the greatest and most clear way is through Jesus Christ, whom Christians believe to be God in the flesh.
posted by:
toztee (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (3:52 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
OK...So you aren't "witnessing"...
Alright...have it your way...it seems you will anyway.
I suppose I just don't equate some of your ideas with interest...all
I know is that it didn't help me to think about God in a positive manner.
It made me think much more of legalism and some of my dislikes for many denominational ideas, values, and conclusions.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (4:49 pm)
Reply to: toztee
God, the true God, is not just anything you want Him to be. There are truths, and falsehoods, that many people believe. This exercise leads to a better understanding about 6 truths and 6 falsehoods. I think it's good. Maybe you can use it at your next couples meeting?
posted by:
Carmen (
reply)
post date:
06.30.06 (5:04 pm)
My beliefs are contained on my website contained in another post at this site, but to give you a brief answer here, I believe in God Who is the Uncaused Cause, the Unmoved Mover, and Who is infinite, eternal, absolute perfection, and much more.
Using the mind that God gave me to find and know Him (Him being the genderless divine pronoun), it is beyond my comprehension how educated people can believe that God Who is infinite, eternal and an absolutely pure spirit, can then become finite, temporal and physical. But people worship the sun, and if that makes them happy, and God allows them to, who am I to argue with them, or with others who believe God can be something He created, such as a cow or a human being?
God's love is infinite, so is His mercy, and so is His justice. I am just trying to show there is a difference between chaff and wheat.
May God's love surround you,
Carmen
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.30.06 (5:56 pm)
Reply to: Carmen
Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
I agree with your understanding of God. But, with Jesus Christ, historical Christianity would not agree that He is a created being. He is eternal, a part of the Trinity. And I would not do a good job of explaining or even understanding the Trinity.
Now, you know even as you state your incredulity, that many who believe in the deity of Jesus are quite intelligent persons. But such is a "belief". By its very definition, it is not rational or even logical. It is a matter of faith. And faith is an essential step in Christianity.
I do appreciate your input. There are several bloggers here who just cannot understand my insistance upon faith. They pester me about it, we debate and discuss, and it is all good natured and I think healthy. I hope you'll come around, and even disagree, often.
By the way, where is your blog?
posted by:
carmenCC (
reply)
post date:
07.02.06 (7:21 am)
To Pastor Dave,
I neglected to comment on your enclosed statements:
YOU WROTE: "Now, you know even as you state your incredulity, that many who believe in the deity of Jesus are quite intelligent persons. But such is a "belief". By its very definition, it is not rational or even logical. It is a matter of faith. And faith is an essential step in Christianity."
First of all, my "incredulity" and your "incredulity" are seen from the eye of the beholder. Your incredulity in my eyes has to do with your failure to believe in what reason tells us with regard to the proven "nature of God". You agree that God is infinite, and it's incredulous that you would also believe the opposite - that God is finite (as in a human being). You agree that God is eternal (that God is innascent, and it's incredulous that you would believe the opposite - that God was also begotten or born. You agree that God is an absolutely pure spirit, and it's incredulous to me that you would believe that God is the opposite - that God is physical a human being).
With regard to the subject of faith, it is faith that makes some people today believe that God is the sun (and even the emperor Constantine, Christianity's greatest benefactor) believed to his dying days that God was the sun. It is beyond reason to believe that God is the sun "except for having faith" which is defined, in this case, as believing something that is unreasonable to believe.
You said: "And I would not do a good job of explaining or even understanding the Trinity", and what a coincidence! The greatest theologian in the Christian community, Thomas Aquinas said the same thing, in essence, that the trinity doctrine cannot be explained or understood. Could it be that something that does not exist cannot be understood or explained? God DOES exist and can be easily explained, and I do explain in simple terms God's nature and attributes at my website, and in my books. I would rather believe in someone Who exists and is explainable, than believe in a myth that does not exist and is unexplainable. Trinity myths have existed way before biblical times just as they do today in the East and here in the West.
You wrote me: "I hope you'll come around, and even disagree, often."
I hope you agree that I have disagreed with you - without being disagreeable.
May God's infinite love surround you and yours,
Carmen
P.S. I wish you would visit my website CarmenChimento dot com, as most questions you have about my theology are explained there, and from there we can have a more meaningful "agreeable" discussion.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
07.04.06 (5:06 am)
Reply to: CarmenCC
I'll visit your site and check it out. I've been extremely busy the last couple of days, and blogging has taken a back seat. And in the next two days my wife and daughter are having surgery, and I've got pressing responsibilities at church, so there will not be a whole lot of time to carefully consider some matters I'd like to explore. But, with time and patience, maybe I can dig into some of these matters a bit more.
You say something quite amazing, to me. "God can be easily explained..." If you can truly do so, then you have accomplished something that brilliant men thoughout history have been unable to do. The search for God is probably THE great pursuit of all life, all history.
To me, God is mystery except that He chooses to reveal self. And God has done just that through Jesus Christ.
You trip up on faith. It is an essential for Christianity. Bu, I'll point out that the Biblical understanding of faith has little in common with the one who insists that the sun is God. We know what the sun is through empirical and verifiable science. Not so with God.
Faith can and should be reasoned. But it is not reasonable.
Well, I'll take a quick look at your site, and then it's time to grill some steaks for the 4th.
