Flag Burning
Why would a person want to burn an American flag? Obviously to make a statement.
Perhaps the perpetrator has a hatred for the United States of America and/or for what it stands. I imagine everyday, usually in another country, someone who feels oppressed or mistreated draws attention to his cause by putting fire to the American flag.
But, most likely when an American citizen sets fire to our country's flag, it is intended as a graphic statement of opposition to the policies and actions of our government. The person, or group, is deeply distressed over the behaviour of our government, and perhaps even our people. So he burns a flag to make a statement: “I am embarassed and sickened over this matter.”
I believe many good and well-intended people are offended by such actions. They see the flag as a sacred symbol of freedom and democracy. It is a representation of ideals for which millions of American citizens have fought and died. So when a person of such mindset sees the burning of a flag, he senses a desecration of the sacredness of such ideals. But, it could possibly be that the person who burns the flag intends to make a statement of the value of great American ideals that he understands to now be endangered and even trodden upon.
Let us say that one is very alarmed over a spiritual or moral issue in the United States. Maybe the reality of 800,000 abortions sanctioned by the American government and approved by the majority of its citizens brings great consternation. And this well-meaning person believes with all his heart that his country was never intended to be a place of such wanton disregard for life. The protester could easily add to this an alarm over the pervasive decadence throughout his society and government. Could he not, as a protest of what he considers to be such an awful policy, burn an American flag? And, could he not burn that flag even as he loves his country?
I do not want, in any way, to devalue the symbol. But, an American flag is a physical piece of property- you buy it, you own it. You can treat it with great dignity, or you can burn it. And if you safely desecrate a flag that you have bought, then you bring no physical harm to another person.
You and I may be angered, even greatly offended, when someone burns the flag. We may lose all respect for that person. We may look upon him with disgust. But, do we really want to imprison someone because he angers, and offends, our political/religious/patri otic sensibilities?
Amendment I, United States Constitution:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
06.28.06 (10:57 pm) [
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posted by:
rheeb (
reply)
post date:
06.28.06 (6:23 pm)
I am not a flag burner by any means, but the U.S. has (for lack of a better word) "screwed" over many people over the last 200 years, and many of those people have been U.S. citizens. I wonder how many black people thought about burning a flag during the Civil Roghts movement...or even recently during the aftermath of the Hurricane. So often, people try to be PC about everything going on. They say if someone doesn't agree with the president or some radical view, then they are unpatriotic...but the fact stands that the U.S. is unfair to many...and though things have changed, the have not disappeared. I am not advocating flag burning, but this "free" nation, known to be chop full of democracy is not "free" to everyone.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (12:35 am)
The only time someone should be prosecuted for burning a flag, which is, as you said, merely "a symbol" (and certainly NOT freedom itself) is if the fire endangers someone.
Anyone who says that men and women fought for "the flag" is either not bright enough to understand the nature of symbolism or is just a rabid lunatic looking for a reason to be pissed off at people who think differently than they do. Further, anyone who says that they themselves fought for the flag needs to be apologized to but told firmly that they were really fighting to protect our right to express ourselves, and that their boot camp sergeant - who possibly instilled the notion - was just being a tad over-zealous.
The whole issue is ridiculous, and always has been.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (1:02 am)
Reply to: thunderthighs
Babbling? Am I babbling? Probably so.
The Senate recently voted to pass a Constitutional Amendment to make it a criminal offense to burn an America flag. The vote fell short by one, with 66 U.S. Senators supporting the amendment. I think it is political pandering at election time, a way to get religious conservatives riled up so they will vote in the upcoming elections. I'm conservative, but I see through the ruse, and it irritates me.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (1:06 am)
Reply to: surrogate
But it is a powerful, and an emotional, symbol. Chances are, the person who tells you he fought for th flag or his daddy died for the flag, will not be open for sensible discussion on the issue. Unfortunately the same person is most likely to want to criminalize flag burning and maybe even knock the protester in the head with a ballbat. Now I may want to use the bat also, but with full knowledge there are legal consequences I must face for doing so. I wouldn't, of course, but the urge would be there. I am flying a flag in front of my home right now. I treat it with respect, and would be offended if someone would desecrate it. But if they buy their own flag and then proceed to burn it, well I'd be disgusted but I would let it be.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (1:40 am)
I have one on my car. I like the flag. It's a cool symbol.
posted by:
ottomanprang (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (5:26 am)
Dave, you're the only person other than myself that I've seen address the flag burning issue as a property rights issue. You buy it, you own it.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (7:03 am)
Reply to: ottomanprang
To me, it is akin to desecration of the Bible. I do not want to see a Bible mistreated. It is a book of great value to me, deserving reverence. But, at its essence, it is paper and ink. I would not want a law prohibiting Bible burning- it's a personal, religious Book. A flag is a symbol. People ought to respect it, but I do not want the heavy hand of the law employed to force it.
There is a used car business near my house that flies several American flags as decorations. The flags become tattered and dirty, and he keeps them flying all the time. A couple of veterans in my church met with the owner to encourage him to treat his flags with greater respect. He did replace them with new flags, but now they are also torn and weathered. It goes to the old adage "You cannot legislate morality". If this guy does not want to show respect for the flag, then I can decide not to buy a car from his business, but I cannot decide to force him to comply.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (10:36 am)
Reply to: rheeb
Every American has the freedom to protest and criticize his government. This flag burning amendment is a threat to this very basic right of a democracy.
posted by:
jesusisangry (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (12:47 pm)
I agree with your views.
posted by:
rheeb (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (3:05 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
So what are you saying? Are you for flag burning or against it? I can't figure out your stance.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (3:19 pm)
Reply to: rheeb
I am not "for" flag burning. It is an offensive thing to do. But I am not "for" laws that would ban someone from burning an American flag, if he has bought it and the burning is not physically harmful to another person. I am "for" the constitutional right of the protester to burn a flag.
Recently where I live was a Gay Pride parade. Several men marched through the streets of the city in dresses, make-up, heels and jewelry. I find it offensive, but I don't think the Law should step in and prohibit their free expression. Same with flag burning.
posted by:
bjervah (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (5:40 pm)
I agree with you on this one. People may see it as offensinve just plain old rude, but that doesnt mean there should be a law against it either.
posted by:
danielmacdonald (
reply)
post date:
06.29.06 (6:49 pm)
let them go to Iraq or Iran if they think its any better!!! any person who is a citizen of the USA who does this should be jailed and/or kick out for good. they are decrease to our country!! if it was up to me they be shot!!!!
posted by:
Heavyarms (
reply)
post date:
06.30.06 (6:02 am)
P-Dave. Rheeb's comments above hi-lite the problem surrounding this issue. You don't want there to be an amendment prohibiting desecration of the flag, so you're obviously FOR flab burning, right? My wife and I went through this the other night. She said "I can't believe you're FOR flag-burning." What people don't understand is that I am not FOR desecration of the flag at all. What I am FOR is the right of another person to do so as a means of expression. I don't agree with their method, but I do agree with their right. The fundamental purpose of the 1st Amendment is to protect speech that you or I or someone else might not agree with. Just because you are in favor or another person's RIGHT to express their feelings doesn't necessarily mean you agree with the way they are expressing them. I can't decide why I disagree with this amendment more, because of the private property issue or it's ramification on free speech. It's probably equal. Sorry for the long comment.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.30.06 (6:40 am)
Reply to: Heavyarms
I appreciate long comments that are thoughtful, and especially when they throw addition light upon the subject at hand.
I'm a pastor within a rather conservative Christian denomination. Our denomination believes in the absolute autonomy of the local church. Sometimes I will have paritioners or fellow ministers hit me with the same logic as you have referenced- "I can't believe you are FOR....". The issue may be female pastors, or more liberal theological positions, or who knows what issue this person is against. Why do we have to be monolithic in our thinking? And I have a problem allowing peripheral issues to break a fellowship- whether it be religious or national. I'm conservative, but I just don't think everybody else has to be or else they are dead-wrong and do not deserve a voice.
Thanks for a fresh voice on this issue.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.30.06 (12:33 pm)
Reply to: Heavyarms
well put.
posted by:
javageek (
reply)
post date:
07.03.06 (4:43 am)
Just a quick note on the property rights observation - I have the right to purchase a car, a house, and a gun. The government clearly regulates how I can use all 3. There are laws controlling my driving habits. There are laws that limit what I can do with my house (ie I can't turn it into a walk-in business). Gun laws are ubiquitous. Property rights are not a usage entitlement.
posted by:
Heavyarms (
reply)
post date:
07.03.06 (6:10 am)
javageek: The laws controlling your "use" of a house, firearm, and motor vehicle are designed to prevent you from physically harming another individual. If you can think of any laws that do not fall under this category, please let me know. You're required to get a license for a gun or to drive a car to ensure that you can handle either properly. You must obey the speed limit so that you are not traveling at an usafe speed and pose a hazard to other motorists. Burning an item that is your personal property doesn't harm anyone. If you somehow DID harm another individual or their property, I'm sure the offense would fall under assault or arson or some other activity that is already illegal. Regardless, I don't think the government should be in the business of dictating how you use your personal property as long as your actions are not harmful to another individual. And by harmful, I mean an observable act of harm, not "mental duress" or some other made up offense. As far as I am concerned, property rights ARE a "usage entitlement." Understand, I am talking about government on the state and federal levels, not local/municipal. As far as I know, there are no federal or state laws regarding how you "use" your home. Right down the road from me is a lady who has a small hair salon built on to one end of her home. When I sold my car a few years ago, I visited a Notary Public who had her office in the front of her home. Laws regarding this vary from city to city/parish to parish (county to county), and I have no problem with this. If you don't like the law, you can move to another city or try to change the law (which is much easier on the local level). It's a bit more difficult to move to another state or country.
