posted by:
rheeb (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (8:14 am)
Awesome post.
posted by:
radiohead (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (8:30 am)
I find this to be such a taboo subject in some churches...when has it become church acceptable to be so righteous that we overlook that all people are children of God? It's no wonder people are jaded by the church and those that are overly righteous thinking they are doing the will of God. What we fail to remember is that Jesus went into the slums and came into contact with those that had leprosy and illnesses, how many of us are willing to do that? The Bible talks about taking on the Christ like image, though a lot of us are too worried about taking on an image that is not Biblical. I think there is an overwelming majority of people who think that as long as they go to church they are saved. But really, I know, it's what is in your heart and whose burden we are willing to take up to the alter for our fellow brethren. It saddens me to hear about people who have gotten so jaded by the church because of the people. Christ is looking for the clean bride, not the group of people who think others need to live their standards. We should all strive to live and be closer to the standards that Jesus proclaimed in the New Testament.
posted by:
seochris (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (8:44 am)
this is seochris
i wud comment after some time
posted by:
FinalyFree (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (9:15 am)
Sadly this is one of the main reason there are so many people with bad attitudes toward organized religion, myself being one of them. As a Christian I am trying very, very hard to break that image and show people that not all of us operate that way.
posted by:
Cutter (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (1:31 pm)
(I'm being nice. Don't worry.)
I won't go to the church for food. To me, it would be completely hypocritical. Would I rather starve? Honestly, at this point in my life, I can't say. I suppose that it depends on the church.
My problem is that the government should be helping the hungry... not paying the churches to. I qualify for food assistance around here... but the place to get the food is at the church.
I haven't gone yet... and I don't think that I will.
I'd rather live off of Ramen noodles and beer.
Many Christians mean well, and many churches do help many people... but with me... I cannot spit and beg in the same direction. ...and I'm quite the spitter.
Just thought I'd toss in yet another perspective.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:03 pm)
Reply to: rheeb
Thanks, my friend. Good to know you are still around.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:06 pm)
Reply to: radiohead
Good comments.
I've heard it said, and as I mature, it makes more and more sense: "Most people do not have a problem with Christ, just with Christians."
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:07 pm)
Reply to: seochris
O.K. Where's the comment?.................................................................................................................Still waiting....................
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:09 pm)
Reply to: FinalyFree
Keep trying. Keep working at it. It is kind of like being part of a dysfunctional family. You still love your family, and you're not going to go around badmouthing your kin, but you want others to realize you're not just like the rest. Not an easy task.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:14 pm)
Reply to: Cutter
This idea, encouraged by our current administration, of faith-based social programs financed by the government, is a bad idea. Church and government need to be kept seperate. My particular denomination has come out, pubicly, against any such mingling. If the church wants to provide food for the hungry, which of course should be a big part of what it is about, then the money to do so should come from its membership- not Uncle Sam.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:53 pm)
"I get a bit irritated at Christians who would dare to think they are supposed to love only a certain kind of person. Jesus would never do that. And I know, with assurance, that He would be kind to this woman. She would feel accepted. She would feel better about herself. She would want to change, and be like Him. That’s the effect Jesus would have on a person. "
Now don't mad, but I'm trying find some consistancy between this statement and your post of last week about the woman rang your doorbell in the middle of the night.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:54 pm)
oops... make that "don't GET mad..."
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:56 pm)
...and I left out "who."
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (4:57 pm)
...and I'm disconnecting the puter and packing it... feel free to delete any or of all of these... my mind is frazzled.
posted by:
TheRockSays (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (5:38 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
We've already been through that Surrogate. Some criticized Dave, but to others, there's a very good chance it was a setup for a home invasion. At any rate, if Dave made a bad decision at 2:30am, then it would easily be by a forgivably small margin.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (8:14 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Do you give a ride to every hitchhiker who thumbs for a ride, or do you try to use discretion and wisdom in making a decision?
Do you give to every charity who sends you a letter, calls on the phone, and advertises on the television?
Do you make a contribution to every beggar who approaches you with a need?
I'd guess to say the answer is "No" to these questions. Many factors go into having to say no. Sometimes, the safety of yourself and the those in your care requires that you forego the opportunity. Sometimes you have to read the situation, and make a judgment call. It's not easy, and sometimes you make the wrong call, but you do the best you can. That's what I did. I can live with my decision.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
08.31.06 (8:16 pm)
Reply to: TheRockSays
Thanks. I thought I gave a thorough and honest answer in the mentioned blog. Sometimes, though, the other guy really does not consider your answer. It's hard to make your case when you deal with that kind of non-listener.
posted by:
seochris (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (1:14 am)
Pastor, I feel u have blogged something which is quite closer to ur inner feeling which u were sharing last week particularly concerning ur daughter. One thing that I liked about this post is that it says something for which I have stood for some time.
Truly I dislike the church for such acts as these when instead of following Jesus who forgave the sinful woman by saying that the personn without sin should stone her first.
Yes at the end in a way Jesus chides her by saying not to sin anymore but at the same time making her feel comfortable that she may have a refreshing new life from that point.
When a person who is terribly emotionally on a down comes to the church, we make that person feel absolutely uncomfortable particularly by our raised eye brows. Some may stand this but others may not even say good bye to their life forever.
I believe the church should follow Jesus not any group standards which is really reidulous speaaking from a broader perspective for Jesus came to save the lost and sinful 1% and not the holy smart 99%.
posted by:
babe4jesus55 (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (7:27 am)
I have a story very similiar to the woman you metioned above. Now the story is different, but the same lesson comes out of it. Will post it later in my blog.
posted by:
bawdy (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (10:53 am)
Amen, brother! Everyone should be welcomed into a church community with open arms, and there shouldn't be cliques within the community.
posted by:
Kiwi in Zurich (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (10:53 am)
Pastor Dave,
how do you reconcile a person being a member of a congregation in a situation where the person is and what they do is considered a sin (eg being gay)? At the end of the day the person has to be judged surely? The church provides guidance on what is right and wrong, and being gay is a sin, so how can a gay person ever participate in the Church in an non-judged fashion, that is be welcomed without being judged at the same time? At their heart, the two positions are antithetical to eachother, no?
posted by:
FinalyFree (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (11:51 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I also want others to know there's a lot of us out there, you just have to dig a little deeper to find us :)
posted by:
radiohead (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (2:53 pm)
I don't know about many other churches but organized religions judge on the basis that they feel they have a right to. I think sometimes religion and the teachings of Christ get intermixed and misinterpreted. Jesus said a few things, Love your brother, take the plank out of your own eye before taking the speck out of your brothers, and above all else love each other. If we want to be overly righteous Christians, yes we can judge a gay person, if we want to be followers of Christ, then no we don't judge, we love each other. Ultimately the church is a tool to guide those along the way, it shouldn't be a place for judgement, the Bible even talks about judging others and the amount you use will be returned to you twofold...It clearly states that we should not judge. If a person chooses to be gay, was born into it or what have you, ultimately it is THAT person's responsibility to go to God with it, no church and no person has the right to judgement or being overly righteous...that is just what I have learned from actually READING the Bible.
posted by:
mercury (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (3:04 pm)
Interesting post PD ... :)
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (8:04 pm)
Reply to: Kiwi in Zurich
Your question gets to the heart of my insistence upon Christian love. You deserve an answer. It is going to be a bit long, and probably not to your liking. You and I have conversed before; you are smart, and you see things differently from me. Let me seek to be a person of integrity and honesty in answer to your query:
Why are there prohibitions in the Christian faith? Things are forbidden because they are not good for a person. We believe God to be all-wise, far superior in understanding than mere man. He is also all-loving. Therefore, if He forbids us to do something, it is because He loves us and because He knows it to be harmful to us. God wants us to have the highest quality of life. Abundance. We must trust Him in this matter, so even though we may not always understand or agree with His instructions, we are to follow because of His absolute wisdom and love.
So, I believe that God teaches that homosexual behaviour is sinful. And my church believes it. We gain this understanding from clear biblical teachings. The entirity of the Bible has to be disregarded, or explained away, to believe otherwise. Thus, God through the scriptures instructs us to not engage in this behaviour. It is sinful, and thus destructive. We trust God, that abundance/joy/peace etc. will be experienced by following a proper lifestyle concerning human sexuality.
Now, must a person have resolved all issues of sin in order to become a member of the church. Of course, if you mean the church universal- made up of all followers of Christ, then the answer is a resounding "No". When you enter into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, commiting your life to His Lordship, then you instantly become a part of the worldwide body of believers.
Now, I guess from your question, that you are asking about the local church. I'll try to answer for my church:
A person can become a member of our local church in several ways. He can step forward to profess a born-again experience, and then join by being baptized. Or, he can step forward to affirm that he is a member of another church of like faith and order, and we will accept his membership by transfer of letter or by trusting his statement. Whatever the specific occasion for requesting church membership, there is an understanding that you have been born again and are committed to the ongoing Lordship of Jesus Christ. And Lorship at least means surrendering to His love and wisdom.
So, must a person be sinless in order to become a member of my church? Of course not. We accept overweight people into membership, although gluttony is clearly prohibited in the scriptures. Everyone associated with the church will have a multitude of sins to deal with. No one, for instance, has mastered the stewardship of thall the facets of life. No one has overcome all temptations, even on a daily basis. The church is a hospital for sinners. And I think such is a key for the Christian- to humbly admit, with soberness and even sadness, that he is a sinner in need of God's constant help.
Not so long ago, I had a couple who were living together without being married, approach me about joining our church. I thought long and hard about it. I asked them to please go ahead and join our church. The key, to me, was that they knew what they were doing was not right according to the Bible. They were in the process of soon to be married. And now, they are very faithful and very helpful in the work of the church. I think an important ingredient to their faithfulness is their appreciation that this church loved them even when they were clearly imperfect.
So, would I allow a homosexual to join my church? I'm a Protestant, pastor of an independent congregation, so I can only speak for myself and my church. Other pastors, other churches will have to wrestly anew with this question. My answer is a qualified "Yes". When a person wants to join my church, I will not ask if he is a sinner. Such is understood. I'm most interested in his surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Some analogies may help: A person can struggle with a drinking problem, and yet admit that he should not be abusing alcohol, and that he needs God's help in an ongoing life struggle. I'd allow that person to join my church. I'd like for a person who has an ongoing struggle with homosexuality to admit that the act is against biblical teachings, and admit that he is seeking God's help in this matter. This does not mean that he has perfected the issue, just that he want Christ to be Lord of his life in this matter.
Now, how about the active and unrepentent homosexual? If there is a militant, defiant attitude, then I would think he is certainly not prepared to be a member of the congregation I pastor. Defiance toward something that is clearly biblical is a sign of someone not ready of Lordship, as I understand it. I will qualify this by speculating that a person could very well be willing to surrender to Christ's Lordship in any and every matter of life- but he must be convinced in these matters. If someone would say to me, "I love Jesus. And, I am gay. I am willing to not participate in a gay relationship if I can be convinced that is God's will for my life." That would be an interesting challenge. He and I could commit to dialog and scripture study, and prayer, and I think I could make a good case for my understanding on this matter.
I've written all of this mostly about official church membership. Lots of people connect with the local congregation without membership. My little church has several. They have many reasons for not joining: Don't want to be baptized, married to a church member but retaining personal membership at another church, still seeking understanding and not yet ready to commit, have personal issues in life that he/she feels must be resolved before joining the church, etc. These people are important to our fellowship.
If a person is actively and unrepentantly gay, and is willing to connect with my church, then I welcome his/her presence with open arms. He can participate in all worship services, classes, activities, and even ministries. I believe this person can be a Christian, although he has an important issue of Lordship yet to be resolved.
I know what I have said is not satisfactory to you. And you can most likely raise some pretty good questions, and point out some inconsistencies. But I've tried to be honest, and (pardon the term) straight.
I'm just wondering if anybody is willing to read such a long, long reply!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (8:12 pm)
Reply to: seochris
I seek, when I preach and when I relate to people as pastor, to be affirming and positive. My sermons are designed not to condemn, but to give hope. I try to make love an ongoing theme. I believe God's Spirit will work in the heart of those who truly seek Him, and that person and God's Spirit can best deal with sin issues.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (8:12 pm)
Reply to: babe4jesus55
I look forward to reading it.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (8:17 pm)
Reply to: godsmack
Now, that is a very tough challenge/condition to deal with. I hope you are getting better with this matter. I'm so glad that one does not have to enter into a church building, nor even gather with a congregation of people, to experience the presence of God.
Does your local church know about your condition, and your desire to be connected with God's people? A church of integrity, and true love, would find a way to connect with you- and I'm talking about more than just giving your child a bus ride to Sunday School. Maybe a couple of the ladies of the church would come by to visit with you, and study the scriptures? Perhaps the minister would want to visit and pray. I think God's people should be connecting with you. give them the opportunity- you'd be doing them a favor.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (8:22 pm)
Reply to: radiohead
Certainly you make some good points.
I do think the scriptures are filled with guidelines for behaviour. For instance, I just completed a study of I Timothy. Basically it says that if a person, who is able, refuses to work and refuses to support his family- then the church should discipline him by shunning him.
I don't think a church should be mean to anybody. Love should be parcel to everything a church does. But it cannot condone all things. It's a struggle, especially to be loving and yet true in matters of right and wrong. And you are right- if we have to er, let's err on the side of love.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.01.06 (8:23 pm)
Reply to: mercury
Thanks.
Where has your blog gone? I miss it.
posted by:
radiohead (
reply)
post date:
09.02.06 (10:06 am)
I can concur with your statements, I think there are limitations for the 'clean bride' so to speak, however I think as long as love is part of our approach...
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
09.02.06 (5:38 pm)
hmmm. PD. I am not completely on board with you on this one. Firstly, I think that Jesus/God WOULD forgive the woman for what she had done. I, on the other hand, wouldn't. See, I can forgive almost anything, but not allowing the abuse of a child. But, since I am NOT God, I don't have to be all forgiving. Thank you Jesus for taking that burden. (and I am NOT being sarcastic either). I do think that churches tend to ignore the downtrodden and underprivileged. It's not just churches though, we, as a society, just want the unfortunates to 'go away' quietly and not bother us. Invite them into our homes? I think not!
I have one of those unfortunates for a daughter. And, frankly, I don't want her in my home most of the time, but you'll have that.
I think there is a place for forgiveness in all of us. But, it is very hard right now. A lot of people don't WANT to change, they just want to abuse. And, they are really pitiful about it when they are jonesing for a fix. That is when they boohoo and moan about how f'd up their lives are. But, you know, their lives are f'd up because they chose to do it that way. The caveat to that is to choose to NOT do it that way any longer. Then, they can be helped and comforted. Yes, prisoners, drug addicts and child abusers need compassion. And, when they finally reach out for help, some should be there. But to lamblast the general Christian population as uncaring. No. They aren't. But they may be a bit weary/wary from being burned over and over again by those who do come to church and take whatever they can get without ever contributing. I am really angry right now. Sorry about the rant. It didn't even make sense to me.
Dawn
posted by:
Kiwi in Zurich (
reply)
post date:
09.03.06 (1:10 pm)
Thanks Pastor Dave. I read the response and appreciate it, including the humour at the end :) I didn't ask the question in order to agree or disagree with you, I'm simply very interested in the whole issue of organised religion and what draws people to it. Having been raised in an organised religion I've often wondered how people reconcile the judgement side of religion with what I call the 'feel-good' side of it. Without wanting to use the 'h' word, the majority of organised religions that I have learned about or been exposed to are based on exclusivity and the notion of being 'right'. Of course that is all wrapped up in the package of God and the bible as a method of legitimising it, but the underlying 'we are right' has always struck me as an essential part of religion and antithetical to the notion of acceptance and kindness that I thought was supposed to be the essence of religion. My experience is that most non-born-again people never really engage with what this means, and as an outsider looking in, it seems to me that it should really mean a lot (the idea that someone died on a cross, rose again and has provided you with the key to an eternity in paradise is no small thing). However, like so many things in life it seems to me to be a peripheral or superficial relationship the people have with religion without really reconciling what it means or what they profess it should mean in their everyday lives. The respect I give to many of the born-again people that I have met, is that while the logic they live by seems manifestly flawed to me, at least they have tried to engage in what it means to religious.
The 'h' word being hyprocrisy of course.
Best wishes.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
09.11.06 (7:37 am)
im confused. the general tenor of this post conflicts with the one a while back about the girl at your door as well as your response to matt 25 in the subsequent comments of that post.
im not sure whether you have had a change of heart about stepping out to love those in need or if perhaps you apply love only when its safe and think thats what god might have intended.
either way im not judging you dave. just hoping youll think and pray about it.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.11.06 (8:01 am)
Reply to: graceshaker
Thanks for considering this post, and thanks for recognizing the obvious inconsistency and hypocrisy. No, I have not had a change of heart. I only apply love when it is safe and when there is something in it for me. Otherwise I could care less about others. Thanks for helping me to be clear on this matter.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
09.11.06 (11:16 am)
If this is sincere then theres no need to thank me. If it isnt then its not very loving.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
09.11.06 (12:50 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
It's not sincere. But I guess it is about as loving as the comment to which it replies.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
09.14.06 (7:45 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
if you consider it unloving to seek clarity from a friend in what seems like a contradiction - then i guess it was.
