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posted by: laydeepulse (reply)
post date: 10.12.06 (6:02 pm)

its interesting that you should post this and i read it today.
in one of my classes today some friends and i were having a debate about abortion. we had on guy who said nothing, 2 pro choice, one neither, one who was against it but saw the side off why people would want it. and me. I was the only one who doesn't think it is ever acceptable. its gods decision when to take a life, not yours. even if it takes yours too.

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posted by: radiohead (reply)
post date: 10.13.06 (7:21 am)

I don't think maturity nor wisdom have anything to do with an abortion. This is strictly an emotional decision. When you find yourself in a situation, much like depression, and don't feel the joy of being pregnant, it's a guilt ridden feeling from the start. I agree that abortion should not be legal, allowed, or promoted. I think there is a misconception about it though. No one could understand unless you were in that position yourself. I don't like people who judge others who have had abortions, how do you know the emptiness a person feels before she even gets to the doctor. It seems like people think a woman walks into the doctor one day and says 'ok doc, take this baby's life'. I see comments like laydeepulse and wonder, have you ever been in a situtation where you had no help? Where emotionally and spiritually you don't have anything left and question God's existence? Furthermore, the guilt that is left behind. It stays in your heart for the rest of your life. So why do it? Because at the time, there was no one there to show me a positive direction, because I didn't believe truly of God's existence, because emotionally I couldn't provide for this child, and because because because, the list is endless. Do I regret my decision? No, because I am forgiven, have learned from this situation, and due to God's unending mercy, I have been restored. I think instead of judging and saying only God is in control and no one has the right, how about praying for those who think that is the only way out. Judge not so therefore you not be judged. - RH

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.13.06 (9:01 am)

Reply to: laydeepulse
I find it an interesting aspect of human nature that many can wax eloquent about great social/ethical challenges when they simply are matter of disconnected discussion, sometimes not understanding these matters to also be very personal issues.

You have some very direct positions:
Abortion is never acceptable
Even when the life of the mother is at stake, still abortion is not acceptable

Let me ask you some questions:
What if it was your mother, or sister?
What if it was yourself?
And, if someone you love/respect would choose to have an abortion to save the life of the pregnant mother, do you think the government should go in with a gun and force that woman to continue her pregnancy?

These are tough questions. I'm not condemning you- not even saying that I disagree with you. But your position should be deeply considered before finalized.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.13.06 (9:10 am)

Reply to: radiohead
"No one could understand unless you were in that position yourself."

I think you lend a perspective that no man, and no one who has never directly faced the dilemma, can fully understand. I thank you very much for sharing what I think are truly amazing words. You have stated, with more clarity and passion, what I have tried to say. Before we can crystalllize convictions about this subject, we need to develop in our hearts a compassionate understanding of the average woman who has come to consider having an abortion.

As you seem to always do, you've added much to what is in this blog.

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posted by: FinalyFree (reply)
post date: 10.13.06 (9:42 am)

Whew! I knew this was going to be tough. I typically try to stay away from topics like this, even in blog-land. I don't like confrontation and this subject seems to stir much emotion. I will state my own personal opinion--abortion, while not right for me is something I think every woman should have the option of. So yes, I do think abortion should be legal. We are 30+ years past Roe v. Wade, I honestly don't think we can rewrite history and change it. I was too young to vote or even care about the topic of abortion at that time, so it's hard for me to say if I would have supported it. The fact is, I grew up in a time when abortion was always legal. I heard the horror stories of women and young girls dying of botched abortions. I realized, even as a teenager that there were plenty of females that would resort to most anything to end a pregnancy. I saw a few of my High School peers deal with the emotional baggage an abortion leaves with you for a lifetime. But, I can say the 2 close friends of mine who had abortions as teenagers will still stand behind their decision today--they both are still traumatized by it, but they both think it was the best option for them. I'm still close friends with them and we've talked several times about the moral side of their abortions, and both of them have told me they wrestle with forgiveness--from themselves and from God. Anyone that thinks that a woman/girl can walk in, have an abortion, then forget it, is sadly mistaken. I also know a woman that has had several abortions, she knows I do not agree with her choices, I mean one is bad enough, but to repeatedly do it? I told her myself she was using it as a means of birth control. Even this woman, who seems to be somewhat at ease with the procedure carries her own emotional baggage. Abortion is a very, very personal decision. It's not my place, or anyone else's to judge the woman that chooses to have one.

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posted by: drforbush (reply)
post date: 10.13.06 (1:43 pm)

PastorDave,

I like the way you framed this issue. You shared some personal experiences and pointed out how people change their minds. So, I’d like to share my own personal experience and how I changed my mind.

I went to a Catholic High School, in the 1970s not to many years after Roe v. Wade. In a health class one day the teacher brought in a poster or a model, I don’t remember exactly, of multiple fetuses at different stages of development. He talked about fetal development, and then out of the blue he said something like, “abortion is still legal up to this stage.” I believe it was about the sixth month. He didn’t say anything more about what abortion was and I had no idea what it was. So, I went off to the school library, where I couldn’t find anything about it. Then I went to the public library where I discovered what abortion was. It made me sad to think that anyone would want to end the life of a baby, but I also never considered the life of the mother. In fact, the only mothers that I knew were middle class mothers of my friends, and the idea that one of these ladies would have an abortion made me upset.

Several years later I went to a Catholic College which was fairly liberal in theology, but being Catholic there were several issues that were considered not up for discussion. Of course, abortion was one. During my years there some students had organized an anti-abortion group. They attended “Operation Rescue” protests and hosted anti-abortion talks. During dinner one night I found myself sitting in at one of the anti-abortion discussions. I hadn’t really thought about abortion much, and I certainly wasn’t as militant as some of these guys were. I certainly didn’t want to protest with them, but I agreed to attend a talk that they were hosting. I attended the talk with my girlfriend at the time and after the talk they collected signatures on a petition that they sent to Howard Metzenbaum our Democrat Senator at the time. I signed the petition, but my girlfriend didn’t and as we walked back to campus I asked her why. And she explained to me her thoughts on having a choice, even if she never chose to have an abortion.

Well, another year later I had the same girlfriend, and she discovered that her period didn’t arrive on time. She didn’t know what to do. She went to everyone in our group of friends and she went to the free clinic to get a pregnancy test. This was before the “off the shelf” tests. She went to everyone, except me. And, later when my roommate told me what had happened, I asked her why it was that she didn’t tell me, she replied, “I knew that you were against abortion, and I didn’t know if I wanted to have one or not, so I didn’t tell you.” It turned out that she wasn’t pregnant, so in practical terms it didn’t matter. But on the relationship level it mattered a lot. I realized that there could be reasons why someone might want to have an abortion. We were both still in school and life would certainly be different. I don’t know what she would have decided if she were pregnant, but choices are part of freedom. And, sometimes bad choices are the price we pay for freedom. But, we must also learn to trust one another because people know their own situations the best and hopefully they make better choices than what a government mandates for them.

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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 10.13.06 (4:48 pm)

"We are not talking about sub-par human beings. We are talking about folks who are a whole lot like you and I."

Uh, yeah, but what's most important is that they ARE NOT you or I - or they might be. I love what everyone has to say about their own experiences and the stories passed on, but to me it comes down to... "CHOICE."

I'm sure many people deal with the decision for years either way, but this sort of thing has nothing to do with one person making the decision for someone else. And, I'll bring this up now, so it's on the table:

Why is it, that so many people who are convinced that we go to God when we die, are so worried about unborn fetuses. Aren't they with God if they're people?

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posted by: religion4life (reply)
post date: 10.13.06 (6:34 pm)

Pastor Dave,

Thanks for sharing this. I believe it took a lot of courage to express your views on this, and I thank you for that.

Without totally side-stepping the issue, which I think is an extremely personal one -- I would like to pose this.

In a day and age when we have so much in terms of resources, and at a time when so many men and women are trying to adopt, even going to third-world countries to do so where the requirements are a lot less stringent than in the US -- couldn't we make it easier for a young girl who has an unwanted pregnancy to have a clean, friendly, comfortable place to stay with people who care for her, where she can have her baby and put him/her up for adoption.

I now some places like this exist, but not enough, and there is still, in this day and age, despite the availability of abortion, stigma on having an unwanted pregnancy.

When I was a young woman I used to agonize over the possibility of getting pregnant and what would I do -- abortions weren't legal at that time.

I believe if we made it completely safe and easy for a girl to go somewhere, where she would be treated with respect and dignity and would not be moralized or lectured, there would be a lot fewer abortions and a lot less agonizing over whether or not it was the right decision.

I think where the real moral flaw lies is in our making young women guilty for getting pregnant. That solves nothing.

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posted by: laydeepulse (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (12:31 am)

i would never get an abortion. not even if it would save my life. i would not support my mom to, i would not suport my sister, nor my best friend. i dont care the circumstances.

as far as the government holding a gun. no. but i DO NOT think abortion be legal. anywhere. i know a girl who had an abortion. who would not have if it was illegal. people use the excuse "so many girls are dying for back ally abortions" that is their choice. there are more babies dying BECAUSE of abortion, the babies dont get that choice. THAT is wrong!

beleive me, i have thought this through.

someone asked me my opinion on assisted suicide today. THAT was interesting. i said straight up, no. they said, "what if i was in agonizing pain and knew the disease i had would keep me that way till i died in three months and i asked for assisted suicide. would you honestly deny me that right?" i said, "yes"
gods decision. not any person's.
they pulled out crap saying i had no idea that pain.

PSH, read my next blog for my response to THAT.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (6:45 am)

Reply to: FinalyFree

It would be hard to reverse 30 years of Roe v/ Wade. I don't think the American public has the mind to do that. It is revealing that your two friends, while agreeing that their decisions have left ongoing hurt, still feel they made the right decisions.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (6:51 am)

Reply to: laydeepulse
I especially appreciate one aspect of your opinion. There is obviously much passion, and you state yourself in no uncertain terms, and yet you forego taking the next step so many do of attacking the one who disagrees with you.

It would be interesting to have this conversation, again, in about ten years.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (7:00 am)

Reply to: religion4life

Makes lots of sense for me. A couple associated with my church recently travelled to China to adopt a child.

I think our society, including the church, can do much more to provide adoption alternatives. I know Jerry Falwell preaches much against abortion, but also his church/ministry provides an extensive ministry to unwed mothers. I thank him for not being a complete hypocrite on that issue.

Still, even when all of the alternative options are provided, there will be nine months of pregnancy for the lady. Those nine months are a dear price to pay. In my heart I think she must find the strength, character, and sacrifice necessary to do so. And I deeply admire the woman who would pay that price. But I know it is a hard thing to do, and I know the law does not force her to do so.

You have touched on several important matters: adoption, love without judgment, need for a positive alternative. Thanks.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (7:08 am)

Reply to: surrogate
Choice. But, it is proper within our society to try to influence a person's choice all the time. Not to take away their chice, but to seek to bring that person to the point of making the choice we think to be the best. We do it with advertising, religion, politics, etc. Isn't it also fair to do so with abortion? I think it is fair, and right, for one to use his passion and persuasion to try to convince a person to choose something other than abortion.

Now, a conservative, Bible-believing Christian would understand that an aborted child would go to heaven. However, this would not be according to God's way or God's timing. And the taking of the life of the child would be considered an act of murder. So, even if the victim would go to heaven, the act would break divine law.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (7:13 am)

Reply to: drforbush

When it becomes a personal matter, then we are forced to think much more deeply, and sometimes we choose to change. In no way am I saying that I would choose an abortion, but I do understand how it would be considered to be a viable option. And, especially if I were a woman.

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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (8:05 am)

Reply to: PastorDave

It's a nice response Dave, but then I'm assuming it's okay for us to kill people in war because that falls within the scope of devine law? It's okay for us to worry about this triviality while thousands a day starve to death - whom, if we decided to, we could help? Children starving to death in in God's plan while we spend billions making war?

I think selectively invoking "God's devine plan" weakens the argument for anyone who hasn't already decided their views on the issue. It's great if one is simply looking to solidify their own position, but unless all the other situations in our society (where we ignore or justify killing of fully alive and breathing people by either proactive means or negilgence) are addressed simultainiously by the people who are so outraged that a woman might make a choice they disagree with, it just doesn't wash.

You've got the inside track on God's devine plan? Come on.

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posted by: babe4jesus55 (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (8:13 am)

I await further discussion prior to stating my view point.

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posted by: FinalyFree (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (8:35 am)

Reply to: PastorDave
Regarding the lingering hurt: I am very, very close to one of these women, i.e. I know her as well as one human can possibly know another. I know her heart aches for the child she didn't have, I know she wrestles with God for forgiveness--she does know he has forgiven her but there are times when she feels she has committed the unpardonable. This particular female once told me that she could never, ever give another woman the advice to have an abortion, neither would she encourage anyone else to do it. But, she also knows in her heart of hearts that it was the absolute right decision for her, at the time. Confusing? It sure is, I struggle to try and understand. I don't always. But I know this woman is sincere and earnest I feel compelled to support her eventhough I truly believe I would have made a different decision.

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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (8:38 am)

Reply to: babe4jesus55

Quit being so smart. You're supposed to jump in with both feet and make a fool out of yourself - or at least that's what I was told in tBlog orientation - which I mostly slept through. What can I say, it was an 8:00 class on MONDAY mornings!

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posted by: babe4jesus55 (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (12:36 pm)

Reply to: surrogate

Those 8 a.m. Monday classes are KILLER!! haha.

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posted by: laydeepulse (reply)
post date: 10.14.06 (4:21 pm)

Reply to: PastorDave

my opinion on this will never change dave. it goes against everything i beleive in my relationship with god. god is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, abortion is killing, god is against killiong, therefore i am against abortion.

transitive property.

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posted by: Dave's Wife (reply)
post date: 10.15.06 (12:38 pm)

Pastor Dave, When I went off to college, I got pregnant. I was only 20 years old and no intention on marrying my boyfriend and father of my child. So I chose to get an abortion. I am a strong believer against abortions now, but when I was 20 years old, I was scared. All that I could think of was my life. I would have to drop out of college and move back home and I didn't want to marry the father so I could see no way out.
I am so thankful that they have crisis centers for unwed mothers to go to for counseling and to help them consider adoption for their child. I wish that I had that to go to.
Being a scared kid, I did what I thought was best.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.15.06 (12:44 pm)

I did not solicit the previous comment. And I've thought long and hard about erasing it; it is perhaps more than I want you to know. But I'm going to leave it.

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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 10.15.06 (5:02 pm)

Reply to:
I think the crisis centers are a wonderful thing, and I wish that abortion wasn't as frivolous a choice as it often is. I just don't want "you" (or me, or anyone else - or group of people) making the choice for other people. It crosses a line that ought be a concrete wall we all sign proudly.

Thanks for writing this. You have a wonderful husband - who annoys me as much as I annoy him! And, I love the old lug - emphasis on "old."

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posted by: radiohead (reply)
post date: 10.15.06 (7:15 pm)

I think the issue remains, as a pregnant woman, who clearly sees no way out, needs not a person to tell them that having an abortion is against God's will, its an act of murder because quite frankly, the guilt is heart wrenching enough than to have some overly righteous person point out... "because the Bible said so". Take it from me, we know that. But Christ offers his own humbleness in the New Testament. Just as we can sit here and say abortion is wrong, a sinful act, we also have to take on the compassion that Christ did. It's fine to have passionate convictions about what we believe, but what do we say to the woman who has no way out? I doubt Christ would come over to her and say, well I know your guilt-ridden and hurt and have no where else to go, in addition you are committing an act of sin.

In the New Testament John 8:1-11 we learned of the Parable of the Adulteress, who clearly sinned and clearly went against the Commandments given out in the Old Testament. Thou shalt not commit adultery, yet what we find is this amazing grace Jesus bestowed upon this woman. He did not become righteous, he did not take her and make her feel lower than she already did as the Pharisees were ready to stone her to death. Instead what does Jesus say? Anyone of you who is without sin cast the first stone. THIS is why being overly righteous about a conviction and having no room in your heart for grace is wrong. THIS is Biblical principle. It does not mean it is ok to go out and sin and rely on God's grace and abuse it, it means when we see a woman who has such great pain, it's not of God to judge because the Bible says so today tomorrow and forever, in that same Eternal book we are asked to give grace and mercy and compassion and understanding to those who may not be in a place to give it to themselves. I feel we need to stop having so many overly righteous attitudes and use our personal opinions by finding the empathy with others and offering words of encouragement, offering a safe place for shelter, offering up of ourselves, not for condemnation, not for the sake of being religiously right, but because as much as Commandments are God's rules for living, so was the compassion in Christ's heart. You never know, one word of encouragement could be all it takes for a woman to change her opinion when she feels there is no other way. I would rather be an example of Jesus' never ending love, than to be stuck in being religously correct.

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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 10.15.06 (7:19 pm)

Reply to: radiohead

Beautifully said.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.16.06 (5:04 pm)

Reply to: surrogate
I appreciate knowing you are sensitive about the matter of abortion. So often, pro-choicers come across to me as being callous towardanything or anyone but the woman who wants an abortion. I think they feel they have to come across so agressively and definite because they know how determined are the pro-lifers. When two groups are so fearful of compromise and so adamant about getting their way, then sensitivity is seen as a weakness. That's too bad. I think both sides need to meet somewhere in the middle. The ghastly procedure of partial-birth abortion needs to end. And the unreasonable insistance against early term abortion needs to be reconsidered. But, will it ever happen?

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 10.16.06 (5:06 pm)

Reply to: radiohead
Quite reasonable, and eloquent. Conservative Christians seem seldom to be able to move beyond a sense of judgment and wrath toward their "opposition". Love, that's always the right thing.

I am glad you have come along, here at t-blog land!

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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 10.16.06 (6:32 pm)

Reply to: PastorDave

I think you might be extremely (and pleasantly) surprised at the number of partial birth abortions that are really preformed and the reasons behind them. It's an emotionally charged topic that makes for great sound bites in campaign commercials, but Dave, when they're performed - which is very rarely - they're almost always performed for very good reasons that have nothing to do with birth control or a frivolous decision made by a last minute change of heart, and I'm sorry, but as awful as you may think the procedure is, it's just none of your (or my) business to make that decision for other people - unless you've walked in their shoes and think with their mind. That's why the whole "I'm opposed to abortion." argument to me is trivial, while the abortions themselves are not. Am I saying that right? To me it's like this: How I feel about it, or you do isn't relevant, because it not our business unless we're involved in the specific situation, and I mean involved as either the mother or the doctor. If we involve ourselves in any way other than to offer support and love to the Mom if ASKED for, we cross a line that we have no right to cross. It's that simple. Do you call people into your office and tell them how to solve a dilemma when they haven't asked for you guidance on a situation? Maybe get a bunch of parishioners to picket the house of a church member you've heard is fooling around on his wife? Put up billboards about the guy? Of course not. That's where the debate has gone in this country. Me? I understand women marching to protect their privacy rights. I don't understand marches, and thousands of cutsie little wooden crosses on a church lawn, and (39, I think it was last time i drove through) billboards along northbound I-75 in Georgia alone meant to make people feel even worse about one of the toughest decisions they'll ever make in their lives. It's a sin to me far greater than the loss of an unborn baby's life, whom if God wants born at some point will make happen in some other way. I sincerely see it as a lack of faith in God, however you define him.

I hope this doesn't come across as callous. It's certainly not meant to be.

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