posted by:
mimi (
reply)
post date:
10.24.06 (7:44 pm)
I am too old, I think, but I had, in my younger days thought about being a surrogate..and then when my darling daughter and hubby couldn't conceive, I wished and offered the same for them...I think, I would do it under these circumstances, as well...just don't think I could really give it up, though...so my point is, if you were willing, would you get to keep it? just a thought....
xoxoxo
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.24.06 (7:51 pm)
Reply to: mimi
I'm thinking the option would be there.
And, how about if things were to develop to the point that men would be able to carry a child- sort of an artificial uturus for a man? After witnessing childbirth several times, I believe many fewer children would be born if men had to give birth.
posted by:
mimi (
reply)
post date:
10.24.06 (7:56 pm)
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!! Amen to that!!!
xoxox
posted by:
almsthvn (
reply)
post date:
10.24.06 (9:06 pm)
I was thinking of the (mostly men) people who are so extreme that they try to blow up clinics - I think they should be the first to try out the transplants.
posted by:
seochris (
reply)
post date:
10.24.06 (10:33 pm)
seochris
Hey I wont agree to this way of human production since its like challenging God openly?
Man has brains so I believe there are certain things which should ve left untouched particularly in regards to your topic.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (6:05 am)
Reply to: breakouttheglass
You are right. Since I'm advocating that the government should be about the business of preserving life, then I'd be a hypocrite to say that gays cannot be a part of the plan.
I'm thinking the idea of an artificial womb implanted into a man is fantasy, probably never to be a real matter. But, who knows?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (6:09 am)
Reply to: almsthvn
Blowing up a clinic, assasinating an abortionist- the rationale is murder to prevent murder. Or, an act of war. It is a twisted mentality, but it shows how serious is the issue to some people.
I would think if someone is so morally opposed to abortion, that he would try to adopt an unwanted child or even bribe someone who is considering an abortion- there are many more positive extremes to consider instead of committing murder.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (6:11 am)
Reply to: seochris
Challenging God? I'm just trying to come up with a creative way to dramatically lessen the number of abortions. Surely this is no more an intrusion into the natural process than the surgical termination of a pregnancy.
posted by:
skyfalling (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (10:49 am)
I think that's a daring interesting thought. Especially after learning the whole abortion procedure, that cruelly scrap the fetus while it is still 'alive' bit by bit. It's scary... On the another hand, will the world become more and more complicated too. Say 'siblings' falling in love with each other despite 'different' parents now.
Sigh>how to ve the best of both worlds...another thing to think abt.
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (4:06 pm)
nice hypothosis. don't think it will ever be a reality though, however, i would certainly take a fetus to term to save it's life, whether or not i could keep it. life is life after all.
i have been thinking of adolus huxley a lot lately. more possibly because of my screwed up daughter. i am hoping that i do not have to take her to court to take custody of the new baby when she is born (it is a girl), but of course, having custody of the other two, i will do so.
i wish i could have locked her up and deprived her of her freedom and ability to put a needle full of heroin into her arm while pregnant with MY grandchild. however, the law doesn't allow that.
i have a niece who is nutso. i shouldn't say it like that, that is totally ignorant. she suffers from bipolar with schizoaffective disorder. there are times we have all wished that SHE had no rights as well. however, she is 30 years old and has the right to STOP taking her medicine and therefore going into a schizophrenic episode and terrorizing neighbors, calling family and getting everyone upset, leaving and we don't know if she is dead or alive....you get the picture.
those of us who pay the prices for other's BAD choices, or inability to make rational, adult decisions are in SOMEWHAT the same fix as the fetus. We don't get any input whatsoever, but must pay the price nonetheless. i think that is the worst part of it all.
i used to be very liberal in my younger days. now,not so much. i think MY right to have grandkids not fettered by a heroin addict mother SUPERSEDES her right to use heroin. I think i should be able to have her locked up.
and i think that women who want abortions should be locked up until the baby is delivered, and then the baby should be taken from them and given to someone who values life.
not a very politically civilized way to be, but i'm like that now.
dawn
posted by:
lorischuster (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (6:45 pm)
what a concept to ponder. the ultimate 'put your money where your mouth is' so to speak. excellent.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (7:03 pm)
Reply to: skyfalling
I do not think anyone, even the most hardened pro-choice advocate, likes abortion. Thus, I would think such an alternative would be acceptable to all parties involved. However, I'm also thinking we would have a very hard time finding enough women willing to be surrogate mothers to these fetuses. Their opposition to abortion would be proven to be self-righteous hypocrisy.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (7:10 pm)
Reply to: fractalmom
Wow- you talk about a theory that will most likely never be realized!
There are places where heroine addicts are locked up to prevent harm to themselves and others. But they are expensive, and the length of the stay is arbitrarily dependent upon the understanding of the physician.
Your daughter sounds like such a very sad person. I know you care, and yet you are so frustrated. I wonder if she has significant others who truly care and are wanting to help her? Perhaps a true friend, or a guy who wants more than just to use her? Sounds like you are her best hope.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (7:13 pm)
Reply to: lorischuster
Yep. I'm thinking it is a bit like "Work Day" at church. Everyone complains about work needing to be done around the church. So, you put together a list of tasks needing to be done, and you set a date to do them. And, come 9:00 a.m. on Work Day, the pastor and two little old ladies show up. Lots of talk, little real commitment.
It feels good to say, "I care". The hard work of caring doesn't feel so warm and fuzzy.
posted by:
sudeshpoojari (
reply)
post date:
10.25.06 (8:45 pm)
Hi dave,
well it is going for long time now this surrogate thing, but only for women who can't concieve, but what your talking now is totally upside down, the question come even if somebody volunteers for this concieve's the child give birth, then who will responsible for taking care of tht child, you might tht women who volunteered wld take care, most probably only those who cld satisfy both is rareeeeeeeee, so to this work has lots economical and social issues attached to it
for chris(Seochris)you talking rubbish, here we are talking about saving life not taking life, if human are trying to become god by doing this, then evry doc trying to save somebody is doing tht, ohhh c'mmon chris come over it.
posted by:
radiohead (
reply)
post date:
10.26.06 (7:51 am)
Hmmm...I think that abortion is not the issue. If we start coming to a place of acceptance, than abortion is the norm not the exception. In a perfect world, people would protect themselves, not be sexually abused, not have affairs, and teenagers would not become pregnant. I feel this is an area of huge misfocus.
I do not agree with gay men at any point in time being able to artificially carry a child. It would be a huge scientific breakthrough, but also damaging to what we know as the foundation of Adam and Eve.
Just a few thoughts as I read this over... :)
posted by:
FinalyFree (
reply)
post date:
10.26.06 (12:08 pm)
Many times as I've seen media coverage of people picketing abortion clinics I've thought it would only be fitting that one of the protestors would be holding a sign reading something to the effect, "don't abort, let me adopt--555-0000". A lot of those against abortion hold their opinions and morals above the woman that is at the clinic for the procedure, I really wonder how many of them would be willing to take the responsibilty for her child? Nice post Pastor.
posted by:
appletree (
reply)
post date:
10.26.06 (12:37 pm)
ur post's very interesting! :) Nice post
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
10.26.06 (2:21 pm)
It's not the carrying to term i worry about, it's the feeding, clothing, providing love and emotional support, ensuring the schooling, the... parenting. And, evidently it's only American kids that matter, where's the mass adoption of all the fully developed human beings starving to death in other countries? Or for that matter you'd think these same folks would make sure that not ONE SINGLE KID here in this country was ever in any sort of orphanage - though I know the term is out of favor.
I find it all too silly for words, but maybe I'm a heartless bastard. I'm sooooo tired of it. "Ethical dilemma" my pa-toot. All this over something that's only your (my, his, her) business if it's your (my, his, her) "kid."
It's all about the nosey-nellie factor. "Live your life the way I say you should live it. Have the same values as me, ya know, the RIGHT ones."
Grrrr.
It's a great post Dave. It just rubs me the wrong way because of the way things are NOW.
posted by:
Nick (
reply)
post date:
10.26.06 (3:33 pm)
Your post is retarded. You should not be able to write anything because you make everyone around you stupider.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.26.06 (9:08 pm)
Reply to: Nick
"...stupider.."?
Obviously we have a grammatical genius in our midst.
posted by:
bronwynj (
reply)
post date:
10.26.06 (10:37 pm)
I find the title of this post offensive, and disrespectful to women.
"...However, I'm also thinking we would have a very hard time finding enough women willing to be surrogate mothers to these fetuses. Their opposition to abortion would be proven to be self-righteous hypocrisy..."
The above is not a logical argument.
I would like to prevent the taking of another human life, but it does not follow that in order to prevent the taking of human life I must feed, clothe, & house the victim for 18 years plus nurture them for the rest of my life - or I'm a self righteous hypocrite.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.27.06 (5:33 am)
Reply to: bronwynj
The title of the post is a play on a phrase that is used here in America. For instance, someone may be bragging or boastful about a particular conviction. And another may tire of his talk, and respond: "I disagree with you. I think you are wrong. Want to make a wager?" Then the previously boastful one may start to hesitate, to waver. The challenger would say, "Come on. Put your money where your mouth is." It is a way to question how willing a person is to put action into his convictions.
Now I'm thinking about if the argument is logical... My hypothetical situation does not necessarily require adoption for the next 18 years. It does ask for 8 or 9 months of pregnancy- a heavy price to pay. Would you be willing to do that?
Some people think men should have no say in the abortion debate, since only women bear children. Usually I think it is just a way to preclude men who speak in opposition. Should women only have the right to speak up for the health care of other women, and stay silent concerning men? Can I only speak in opposition to capital punishment for men? Maybe my church should be an all-male church? And, half of all prenatal children are male.
"Self righteous hypocrite" is rather strong language. I guess other words, less inflamatory, could be used. But I think all of us, in differing areas of life and at differing times, fit the category to some extent.
Thanks for reading and commenting. It is much more interesting and helpful to have interchange of ideas with this kind of blogging, in my opinion.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.27.06 (5:34 am)
Reply to: appletree
Thanks. Come on by anytime.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.27.06 (6:59 am)
Reply to: FinalyFree
I've come to be more sensitive to the morality of the person who is considering an abortion. For the longest, I've considered to to be such a hideous act, akin to deliberate murder. But it's not necessarily so black-and-white. There are many stages of fetal development. There are many reasons for a woman to consider an abortion. I think, for the mjority, it is a very hard decision. I think, if pro-life advocates, would have a true compassion for the dilemma and offer a personally sacrificial alternative, we could bring about a change.
Willing to adopt? And, how many are willing to give, say $1000 per year, to provide quality foster care and support for those who need financial assistance to adopt? And, how about a government that has greater compassion and less condemnation for the young mother who is alone, broke, and pregnant?
I wonder if Right To Life offers such a sign for sale?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.27.06 (7:04 am)
Reply to: surrogate
You ask for the impossible. There are so very many inequalities in our world. We are blind, dare I say hypocritical, in many areas. If we wait until we are willing to solve all these problems, and until our hearts are right in all these matters, then nothing will ever be done. Let's feed and clothe and provide for the care of American kids, even as we seek to open our eyes to the needs of the greater world. And I say let us deal with the unfairness of abortion even as we also work on world hunger, child abuse, etc. Let's do what we can, with our imperfect instruments.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
10.27.06 (7:44 am)
Reply to: sudeshpoojari
It seems to me that God gives us inspiration and stewarship of scientific advances. If we ever develop the ability to actually do fetal transplants, then I would view it as a gift from God, to be used wisely.
You're right- lots of moral and ethical matters would go along with such a matter. Would there be enough support from the pro-life community to take care of all these extra children. The efficient solution is abortion- saves money, saves all the effort necessary to care for these kids. It's a real challenge for those who talk about the "sanctity of human life". I would like to think the religious community, especially, would do what is necessary.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
10.27.06 (12:41 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
I say prioritize worry about people who are most certainly alive and compledtely human under anyones' definition first. When we handle that? - I'll support looking into and worrying about "when a fetus is viable."
Till then, have enough faith in God to deal with and handle aborted fetuses as he/she sees fit.
posted by:
lorischuster (
reply)
post date:
10.27.06 (1:45 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
I don't understand how liberals purport to be so warm and fuzzy about 'feelings' and fighting for those who can't help themselves...but have such callous views on a human fetus. Partial birth abortion is a travesty and I cannot believe that we can't even find any common ground there. I get your point but two wrongs don't make a right.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
10.28.06 (3:25 am)
Reply to: lorischuster
First, YOU guys SAY we say we're warm and fuzzy, just like you SAY you're the "truly compasionate side." I'll refer you to the facts as far as partial birth abortion goes. It's a wonderfully emotional issue for folks who'd like to eventually outlaw choice altogether to hang their hats on, and something that (a.) happens RARELY and (b.) very very seldom as a last minute change of heart for birth control or something trivial like that... When it happens, it usually for a reason that's incredibly serious and something that the Doctor and Patient have discussed at length and made a tough, and I'd guess heart wrenching, decision about.
Here's the middle ground: No one will ever force YOU to have a late term abortion, or any type of abortion at all. No one will ever force YOU to be sterilized or be forced to submit to your mate's will, or be PERSONALLY leagally subject to the moral leanings of a specific group of people, with whom you may or may not agree, or most importantly, with whom you may or may not want to share all the factors you've used to make ANY very personal decision.
You're right. To my way of thinking, any woman who'd casually go into a delivery room and say, "Doc, listen. Not feeling up to it. Let's off the kid." is a shitheel and the doctor who agrees to do it on those grounds is a blackhearted turd. Even so, I wouldn't be worried about the baby. God'll take care of the baby just fine.
"Right" isn't the point. People use laws to do both the right and wrong thing ALL the time. It's simply not "right" to assume that "you" know best for every situation that comes up, oir that you can assume to have enough information about a specific situation to make such a decision for someone else. EVEN regarding partial birth abortion.
Is it awful? Oh man, the procedure is horrid. NOT the point. Am I FOR partial birth abortions? No, but not the point. Are You? No, of course not, but also, not the point.
posted by:
lorischuster (
reply)
post date:
10.28.06 (5:59 am)
Reply to: surrogate
I don't think you are warm and fuzzy...I think you talk warm and fuzzy. I do believe that there is true compassion in empowering people rather than rescuing them-- however, I believe in providing a safety net in almost every circumstance. The government was never meant to take care of us. As far as abortion--first of all, I wouldn't call myself a pro-lifer...because it isn't my decision to make for another woman. It is absolutely ridiculous to say that people who are against partial birth abortion are just trying to take away all reproductive rights--that is the liberal battlecry--fear. It's a hideous procedure and even if it is done once it's once too often and completely unnecessary. Yes, there are many, many women who find themselves with making a gut-wretching choice. I get it. but you are deceiving yourself if you don't think that there aren't women out there (and lots of them--generally with the means to support a child) who talk about their abortions as casually as the weather. I've heard it. I don't think that we are far away on this issue Surrogate, I'm not for trying to outlaw abortion, but if something could be done to make them more unnessesary what is wrong with that???
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
10.28.06 (6:06 am)
Reply to: lorischuster
Only one thing. Partial birth abortions are done when a baby is severely deformed, for instance. I won't get into specifics, but I know of some cases where it was exactly the right decision, at least from what I've heard from people who have made the decision. Not criminals, not murderers, but real people, loving people, dealing with awful situations.
I'm not arguing that some people are very casual about abortions.
