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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (8:07 am)

I know this isn't supposed to read as funny, but you wrote it very very well... and it brought a smile to me. I can just hear you...

"uh huh... Okay... right... well... oh... I see... mmm... well thanks for your concern... I'm sure everything will work out just fine... (now Dave's steaming,) good... good...I'll consider what you've said. Okay... Bye now... I really have to go... right... Okay, I'm hanging up now... bye... BYE... (click)

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posted by: intricategirl (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (8:26 am)

I'll be honest- this is why I left church. I know for a fact that not all Christians are like this. But when you visit church after church where everybody is all too willing to shove Jesus off so they can climb on the cross and die for all mankind's sins, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that this is just a small, but loudmouthed minority.

I wish your mutual friend luck in whatever he is dealing with. I wish you patience, especially on the phone. ;) And I wish the caller luck in KNOWING Ecclesiastes 3:1-8. 'Cause he seems to have gotten confused about the proper time and action.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (9:28 am)

Reply to: surrogate
You must have been listening!
A self-assured, self-righteous pontificator is a very difficult person with whom to make a point about humility and love. This guy was just so full of himself. Worst of all, he absolutely did not know it. He was fully convinced he was being good with his phone call.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (9:31 am)

Reply to: intricategirl
Interesting, isn't it, that Jesus had no problem hanging out with sinners without blowing their heads off with the gospel? Gentleness. Love. We could learn a thing or two from Him. I'm sorry you have not found a church that exhibits such.

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posted by: intricategirl (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (9:48 am)

Reply to: PastorDave

It's funny you mention that. One of my favorite movies is a French film that deals with ridicule and wit in the court of Louis the 16th. They are attempting to embarrass a man and invite him to dinner. They declare that it's "unlucky" to have 13 people at a table, so the person who has shown the least wit by the time the soup arrives must dine with the footmen. They go around the table and a woman distracts him so much that he cannot come up with a proper response. Another person declares that we are known by the company we keep (implying that it is awful to sit with the footmen). As he rises from the table to go eat with the footmen, the man responds, "Not true. Judas kept excellent company."

Don't use that in a sermon, BTW. Some of the scenes are rather scandalous. :D

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posted by: bawdy (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (11:30 am)

Grin and bear it. haha

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posted by: ruined (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (1:01 pm)

PastorDave... this post brings up a question that has been in my mind since I had the ability to think and reason (approximately 23 minutes, now). Does God, being of infinite grace, but extremely tough love, hold out blessings (or worse yet, allow terrible things to happen) as a cause of not being aligned with His will? Or are bad happenings a RESULT of not being aligned in His will?

As for your phone friend... I'm with Intricategirl on that one. That is one reason why I haven't stepped foot in a church in awhile. Aside of a precious few, most of the people I have had encounters with seem to know how to run my life better than I do and they make no attempt to hide that belief. That is why they booted me out of their establishment because I chose to dye my hair black. I'm evil and I don't belong in church because of that. Nevermind the fact that I became a Christian in December of '88. I guess to play the part, I have to conform with their version of The Proper Christian. Oops... sorry. Now, I'm ranting... :)

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posted by: mimi (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (3:54 pm)

ah, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions, isn't it? : )
xoxox

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posted by: lorischuster (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (5:55 pm)

I'm trying to figure out how to write out a screaming sound...so many busy-bodies in the church...people who used prayer chains as an acceptable vehicle for gossip. I remember an older woman in the church suffering with her second bout of cancer and people saying to her if her faith was stronger she would be healed...that kind of garbage is just so infuriating. That man's only purpose was to show his piety and his "friends" weakness. We had two people who we barely knew knock on the door one day while Ali was dying...they wanted to go upstairs and pray over her...asked us if we had ever thought about praying for a miracle! Are you kidding me??? Gee...we should have thought of that sooner! I go to a church with about 12,000 people in it--I go for the teaching because it is phenomenal. I don't think I will ever immerse myself in a 'church culture' again. True, it is not all Christians, as most are very genuine and very caring. But, a few bad apples....
As usual...I think you handled it very well. Sorry, you hit a nerve.

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posted by: weasy (reply)
post date: 03.15.07 (9:44 pm)

clearly, his intentions are sound,but i agree he chose the wrong manner in which to assist..... are there any lessons that you can gain by what he did? by what you did?
-weasy

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posted by: LadyG (reply)
post date: 03.16.07 (2:23 am)

A real hypocrite, he forgot to first take the log out of his own eye, before he can take the speck out of his brother's eye.

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posted by: kurtmaddox (reply)
post date: 03.17.07 (8:26 pm)

I'm in agreement completely with your Pastoral approach here, PD! Regarding the whole not going to heaven with "sin in your life" issue is quite a challenge for us all. I guess good ol' heaven's got plenty of vacancies if that's the requirement! lol!

On that matter, I stand with the Paul who said "there but for the grace of God go I!"

Be good!

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posted by: lisa (reply)
post date: 03.18.07 (1:33 pm)

i know tons of christians who use the term "prayer request" to actually mean "gossip".
this reminded me of that.

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posted by: mulder (reply)
post date: 03.19.07 (7:40 am)

thanks for commenting. I wish you luck with this situation :)

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posted by: seochris (reply)
post date: 03.20.07 (5:54 am)

Well that could also be a sincere effort by the friend. Maybe you should have a chat with all three of you together over some coffee

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.20.07 (8:51 am)

Reply to: seochris
Probably not. I will not validate the judgmental, self-righteous attitude of this person by including him in any efforts of ministry toward this friend. Someone can be sincere and yet quite wrong.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.20.07 (8:53 am)

Reply to: lisa
Sometimes I think our Prayer Chain at church, where we phone one another with urgent prayer needs, degenerates into such. Recently on lady on the prayer chain gave the opinion that we should only pray for church members, and not for needs of people outside the church. She has been dropped from the ministry. Sad.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.20.07 (8:54 am)

Reply to: kurtmaddox
Now, regarding your quotation, was that from Paul or Keith Urban?

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.20.07 (8:55 am)

Reply to: LadyG
It is rather difficult to properly examine the imperfections of another person when you have a log protruding from your eye! Good point, straight from the Sermon on the Mount.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.20.07 (8:56 am)

Reply to: bawdy
There little productive outcome with trying to reason and argue with a person who is totally convinced of how right he is. Just let him have his say, and get him off the phone!

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.20.07 (9:04 am)

Reply to: ruined
I guess you are not aware that the Bible says, "...and thou shalt not dye thy hair black, lest thou fall into eternal damnation.." - I Hezekiah 6:66. Look it up!

Does God hold back on His blessings because of our sin? Tough question. I think God's greatest wish for each of us is to glorify Him. This runs quite counter to the pursuit of most, who seek mostly temporal and surface things. The two issues clash. Thus God's determination to bring about in our lives His greatest purpose and glory will often make a mess of our own selfish pursuits. Thus we become unhappy, because we have the wrong perspective. God is not zapping us. He is insisting that we find true fulness in life. When we don't appreciate that fact, then we misunderstand and do not appreciate what God is up to with our lives.

I don't know if I am making sense. I do know it is lunch time, so gotta go! You keep loving God, and you'll find a group of believers who will appreciate you and help you in your spiritual journey; I truly believe it.

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posted by: FinalyFree (reply)
post date: 03.22.07 (3:13 pm)

When I began reading this post I thought of what most of my Tuesday's start out like--I'm off on Monday! lol But usually it's calls wanting money for rent, utilities, medicines, and the like. I'm sure you know about this all too well. It amazes me the role some people think the church should play in 'other's' lives. I once had a man stand in my office and tell me that we should give him the money he needed, that as a church that's the right thing to do. What?? In all my time in a church, employed or otherwise, I was never made aware of that fact.

I think you handled this caller perfectly. Maybe he should scan John 8 for good measure :)

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.22.07 (5:13 pm)

Reply to: mimi
It is a wide and easily travelled road, to be sure. But, being serious for a moment, one must trample upon the cross to get to the end of this road.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.22.07 (5:16 pm)

Reply to: weasy
The guy was quite wrong with his basic theology. You don't "go to Hell" because you commit adultery. God doesn't give you cancer because you have not reached your potential as His child. This caller reminds me of the Rich Young Ruler who assured Jesus he had obeyed the commandments all of his life. Of course he hadn't- he was simply so full of himself to realize he was like everybody else- a sinner in need of the grace of God.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.22.07 (5:20 pm)

Reply to: FinalyFree
Certainly we both know the church has a responsibility to meet the needs of others. But, not at their behest, but under the leadership of God. I, too, am regularly asked for assistance from others. I try to discern the true need that is before me. Often I come to understand that giving money and/or alleviating the requested matter would serve no good purpose. You and I, as church leaders, are not here to be manipulated by those have little or no respect for our faith. Wisdom on our part is a must. That, and a good strong cup of coffee in the mornings before the phone begins to ring.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.22.07 (5:25 pm)

Reply to: mulder
Thanks.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 03.22.07 (5:30 pm)

Reply to: lorischuster
At the moment, in sober reflection, my mind goes back about five years ago to when my niece Julie was dying of cancer. She was about 14 hours away. I felt an urge to set aside what I was doing, and go to Arkansas to pray with her. I thought long and hard and often about it. In the end, I did not go. I rationalized that my prayers were just as powerful where I was at. And I also thought, to do so, would be to give the wrong message to those people of faith where were there at the time. Still, sometimes I wonder if I should have made the trip? In such a situation, you want to do all you possibly can to bring about an answer, a miracle. If God would only cooperate! Often, He doesn't. And I don't like it.

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posted by: lorischuster (reply)
post date: 03.22.07 (6:45 pm)

Reply to: PastorDave
Please don't get me wrong...it's not the thought that someone would want to pray for her--God knows that our very survival up to that point (and still), I believe, was the result of being held up in prayer. It was the condescention in the thought that perhaps our faith was not strong enough...our prayers were not powerful enough...that we had not thought to pray for a miracle. I can't describe it...I don't want to sound ungrateful but, it bordered on insensitive. I'm sure that I over-reacted but it was a very terrible time. You are right...sometimes He chooses not to cooperate and there doesn't necessarily have to be a reason.

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posted by: FinalyFree (reply)
post date: 03.22.07 (9:45 pm)

Reply to: PastorDave
You're exactly right Pastor, and many people do think that they can manipulate or play upon our sympathy. One case comes to mind for me, we manage a community Food Pantry, there are few 'rules' to getting food but one of them is if you're arrested on drug related charges your priveleges are suspended for 60 days--the state has a similar rule for food stamp receipents. One of our 'regulars' name was published in the local arrest record for drug charges. She came in and I told her I was aware of her recent arrest, she understood and wasn't bitter. I told her I was going to put her enrollment card on my desk where I'd see it the first thing every morning and I was going to pray for her each day to overcome her addiction. In 60 days she came back to my office to apply for food and was beaming because she'd not had any other arrests. I told her I'd prayed for her everytime I looked at the card. I still don't know if she is drug-free but she accepted the terms graciously. This whole diatribe is to stress that while (most) churches absolutely do try to have an outreach program for those in need, it's by choice and the teachings of Jesus, not simply because we are a church.

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posted by: Farfarello (reply)
post date: 01.18.08 (12:52 pm)

No offence..
but this sounds a bit like Ned Flanders phoning Reverend Lovejoy xD

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