posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.04.07 (9:47 am)
Your charaterizations are so idiotic sometimes that it makes me ignore any further point you're trying to make. Stating that "the opposition party wants to lose this war for political gain" is one of those statements.
You can't even define what victory would be, and nether can anyone who supports this mess. It's changed about a zillion times and continues to. Grow up and quit the childishness.
Ever think that just maybe if you'd have taught your son what the military is really for, and when and why it's appropriate for it to be used, that just maybe he wouldn't be so fired up to join right now? That maybe if you'd taught him not to make snap judgements about things that maybe he'd be more thoughtful about this decision? That maybe if critical thinking skills were part of his arsonel instead of the "this is right and this is wrong and there is no gray about anything in the world," deal your espouse, that maybe you wouldn't be having this episode?
Wouldn't be surprised if you sign the papers for him to go early - but man oh man, would I'd love to be wrong. Good luck to you AND him and I hope he comes back healthy and no worse for the wear. He will not, of course, be the same person ever again. Maybe that's a good thing, or maybe not.
posted by:
Pastor's Dave's wife (
reply)
post date:
06.04.07 (5:47 pm)
In whose eyes is this war not appropriate??? Maybe in my sons eyes, it is appropriate.Maybe our military is to be used just how they are being used right now. And just maybe my son knows that, and in his eyes it is justified to enlist. We taught our son that he has his own opinions and beliefs and not ours.
My son has always wanted to join the Marines for the past four years therefore, his decison to join was not a snap judgement that he hadn't thought of. Who says that my son feels that there is no gray.All, I know is how he feels about Iraq and how strong he believes in America. First of all, you don't know my son and therefore, I feel that you can not make such light judgement on a WELL THOUGHT OUT decison of his.
I never dreamed that any of my children would want to join the military. But we have installed in them a right to make their own decisions and whatever those decisons are and however we felt about them, we have to respect them. There has been many, many of nights lately that I have cried over this decision of my son.
You know, I feel in my heart that you were so wrong in making such quick, insensitive judgements. If you are indeed a friend of my husband, you should be giving him encouraging words instead of cutting words that hits a heart that is already heavy. This is a very tough time for us.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.04.07 (7:59 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
You make some serious implications here:
*That what I have said is "idiotic".
How many times do I have to counter to you that, just because someone views a matter differently than yourself, he/she is not inferior to you intellectually, morally, or logically. Come down from your mountain- you're not so wonderful.
*That I have not done a proper job of raising my son.
Have you been observing for the last 17 3/4 years? How do you know? I think raising a son to love God and love his country is notable. I think his emeging to be a thoughtful and caring person who truly wants to involve himself in making a difference in his world is positive. I think daring to make this decision, even when he knows I am not happy about it, shows some gumption and even some integrity that have to begrudgingly respect. I haven't programmed him. I haven't forcefed him religion or anything else. I've loved him and fathered him. You are way off base with this one.
*That I have not taught my son what the military is really for.
And, what might that be, All Seeing And All Knowing One? You would probably say the military is for the advancement of great social causes. Perhaps you would go so far as to say for national defense. Inwardly, though, like Clinton you would "loathe the military". All the while, squirrely folks like yourself stand cowardly behind the backs of our soldiers. There's a silent but unmistakable glee about losing a battle, and losing a war. You just won't believe, because of possession of the same narrow mind you feign to detest in the "conservative", that the radical our soldier seeks to battle is the very same person who would gladly kill you and your family and your whole city in the name of his twisted cause.
A big problem with the campaign in Iraq is that our military has lost sight of its purpose. A millitary victory could have been gained long ago. But we've tried to conduct a "humane" war- what an oxymoron. And we are into the all-too-liberal attempt to build a nation. These are incredibly stupid projects for a military. What ends up happening is soldiers being blown to bits while riding the streets on the back of tanks and trucks.
*That neither I nor my son are capable of critical thinking skills.
An amazing hubris you have.
My son is 17 years old. A kid. He thinks pretty well for 17. But I believe he needs to mature several more years before marching off to war. What were you doing when you were 17? Smoking pot? Having sex? In many ways you were probably a mindless, stupid kid. I'll confess- that describes me pretty accurately at 17. My son is thoughtful, considerate, a fairly good student. He is patriotic & religious. He stays away from drugs, alcohol, and smoking. He can carry on a great conversation. And I'm convinced he has put as much thought as a 17-year-old can into this decision. I dont' agree with his decision, but obviously I have a lot more respect for him than you.
*That I see everything as right and wrong, with no gray areas.
Not everything. So very much of my blogging has sought to be a honest statement of my struggles with the gray areas of life. I've tried to be transparent. A big problem that comes from you, time and again, is that you have this very problem of which you accuse me. You think you are the Great Possessor Of The Absolute Truth in all matters, large and small. You'll discuss, but only to enlighten the poor uninformed.
Well, you have irritated me enough for one night. By the way, the previous comments from my wife are entirely her own. She was a bit perturbed with what she read. I told her to take it easy: it's only blogging, and besides surrogate is "full of it" with this matter- a phrase I use rarely and reserve for a special type of individual. She responded anyhow. I'll not defend, except to say she's a heck of a mother.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.04.07 (8:06 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Dave, for you to say that anyone who disagrees with YOU only does it for political gain, is what is idiotic.
Feel better?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.04.07 (8:17 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
For someone who insists that I should engage the debate, point-for-point... you're pretty poor at it yourself.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.04.07 (8:30 pm)
I've read through these again. To both of you, my point is that of COURSE he's wanted to do this for years. He's been hearing that anyone who opposes this war is less than honest, or is full of some other horrid trait, unless, of course, you say different things to him on the subject than you say to folks here, and since I don't think you're two-faced, and that your beliefs are sincere, if goofy, he probably thinks this is the very best thing he could do to make you proud.
My point is simply that we reap what we sow. Familiar with the concept?
Hubris? Sorry. Just because I think things through and come to logical conclusions doesn't mean I'm either full of "it" or think I'm always right about everything. Sometimes knowing when things are NOT right, does not constitute being sure what IS right. I'm not the one claiming to know what God wants for the world, or that if other people don't believe what I believe that they're bound for hell. Black and white, right? No logic to it, just the way it is, right? Just ask Dave.
Please.
I'm sure he's a very bright seventeen-year-old. On the other hand, he is, I think, by virtue of that statement, seventeen.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.04.07 (8:34 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Your intial response didn't adress my points at all except to do some name calling. Your statement was idiotic unless you know the hearts of everyone who opposes this war. Admit that and we'll move on to the next point. I'm certianly not afraid to take you on logically, though my concern is for your kid.
So did you sign the papers?
posted by:
mimi (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (4:14 am)
I, for one, agree with Dave's wife...no matter what we think, we should be trying to help this family in a very difficult time and a decision that, I for one, am glad I don't have to make. We are supposed to be his friend and be supportive of his and his family's feelings. There is no one right choice here. I have friends and family serving in Iraq. If I could be "king of the world", I would bring them all home safe and sound, but that is not the way of the world. And, I am not sure the young men and women serving would agree with me, anyway. Those that choose to serve have a "calling", just as you, Dave, had your calling. Your son has not just decided on a whim...he has had this as his dream, and even though it isn't the dream you have for him, he may just go around or over you to fulfill his own dream, regardless. I know it is heart-breaking for you and his mother and sisters, but he has to be allowed to follow his dreams, as I am confident you realize. I agree with you that he is so young, but even if you can delay him a bit of time, he is more than likely going to go ahead with this. If this is the case, he will need your support and belief in him...not the Marines or the good ole' USA...I will pray for you and yours that this works out the way you want it to. That your son will come out of this a strong and healthy man to live to are ripe old age and makes you proud. xoxoxo
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (6:01 am)
Reply to: mimi
Mimi, if everyone who's serving is responding to a calling, I'm sure they'd do it for free.
I have nothing but compassion for everyone on both sides, but MOST of these kids have been sold a bill of goods. Of course, once they've done it, they have to convince themselves they're doing the right thing, but most of the recruiting and re-ups take place due to the money and bonuses offered, which is easily converted into "I'm serving my country," prior to, and once the papers are signed.
Call me crazy, but to my way of thinking, if this was a real war, we'd be drafting every able-bodied soul in the country and be paying a tax specifically targeted to pay the piper. The ONLY reason this war has had the support it has is because it affects so few of us directly. We are allowing people to be killed for show. "See how smart we are? See how powerful we are?"
The reason my comments sound harsh is because of the way Dave has prefaced his assertions to which I responded. I know damn well this is tough on the family, and I know it has to be heart wrenching, but I believe comments were invited and I'm responding to what I read. I let the same sort of crap go in the previous post, but he continued with it here and I simply called him on it which he didn't like.
posted by:
Cuz (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (10:22 am)
Reply to:
Right on Moma! I cried those tears too. I know your hearts heaviness and the proudness it hold for your son.
My eldest (M) went to enlist. Just before signing they pulled him because of his asthma. He has even gone back and tried twice more. Every time they pull him for his asthma. But my tears and pride each time were very honest. Just as yours and Dave's are. Much love to you both.
p.s. D...it's good to see your input on here.
your Cuz...M
posted by:
Cuz (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (10:25 am)
My son too was taught to use his head for more than wearing a cap. His decisions are always well thought out. He started his first attempt to join was at 17 too. It had been his plan for 6 years. Now, he's 30. And still desires to join.
posted by:
(
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (10:28 am)
Like they say:
Kill'em all, and let God sort'em out.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (10:45 am)
Reply to: surrogate
Comments are always welcomed. Even ignorant ones.
One does not "serve" for the money. With an all volunteer army, there are better ways to make better money. To join the military is a sacrifice. The money is not sufficient. However, it is a commitment to serve full-time. Bills continue, and must be paid. The money comes from a grateful country. In my opinion, it should be more.
Same with the paying of preachers, by the way.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (10:48 am)
Reply to: mimi
Sounds like you have been around some headstrong young men and women! You know them well. Who knows, you may have been one yourself. I was, although the military was never part of that head.
Thanks for your encouragement. There is a lot of heart in what you have to say. Reminds me so much of my wife.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (10:52 am)
Reply to: Cuz
Thanks. My opposition is because, in my opinion, he is making the wrong decision. Maybe the pride will come.
30 and still trying? Perhaps he should try to be a "weekend warrior"? The Reserve. Of course, they are shipping a lot of those guys overseas also.
Good to hear from you. I'll be driving over your way in the next few weeks. Maybe you'll be at home?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (10:53 am)
Reply to:
"Kill'em all, and let God sort'em out."
Who says that?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (11:41 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Ignorant ones... Okay. Whatever you say. I keep forgetting you have the ability to read other peoples' hearts. You're right, I must be ignorant to think you don't have that ability. Must be nice.
posted by:
tfruge1 (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (11:43 am)
I hope whatever decission you and your family makes is the right one. As a father you have a right to be concerned for your son and I hope he see's that. He needs to know that you are just thinking about his well being and not trying to control him.
If he chooses to serve, never let him forget that what he is doing is greatly appreciated by this country. Tell him to not buy into this media spin and troop hating that him serving is ultimatly keeping all of us free.
A soldier doesn't get to pick his battles. He is told where and when to fight by our Commander and Chief. Even if you don't agree with a particular war, you are still serving your country bravly and that is the greatest thing you can for your country.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (11:47 am)
and since you accuse me of not addressing your comments item by item, what bills will your son have continuing after he's in the marines? I'm simply asking since you tried to use it as somthing that made sense. Personally I think people who serve in the military ought to be paid very very well, and we ought to be paying a tax to cover it. But then, maybe that's because I think higher taxes are the answer to everything, right? No. I just think we ought not be passing on today's fiascos onto our children.
And by the way, $40,000 re-up bonuses DO seem like a lot of money to those who've never had the ability to save that kind of dough... Maybe not to YOU, but it does to a lot of people.
posted by:
almsthvn (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (6:14 pm)
my heart goes to your family as they face these tough decisions.
posted by:
doeeyed (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (6:43 pm)
Pastor Dave,
My heart goes out to you, having a son that is close in age to your son, I can feel your pain. Whatever decision is made, I pray for the safety of your son and for peace of mind for you and your wife.
Blessings,
Tammy
posted by:
Robin (
reply)
post date:
06.05.07 (7:39 pm)
I see an argument has erupted, and I am not going to read all of those entries. I just wanted to tell you that the same thing happened to me in 2005.
After reading how it turned out for you, I may post more. I wish I had time to do so now. The only thing I will say, is GOD IS IN CONTROL!
Believe that.
Robin
posted by:
Robin (
reply)
post date:
06.06.07 (4:42 am)
I see an argument has erupted, and I am not going to read all of those entries. I just wanted to tell you that the same thing happened to me in 2005.
After reading how it turned out for you, I may post more. I wish I had time to do so now. The only thing I will say, is GOD IS IN CONTROL!
Believe that.
Robin
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.06.07 (6:34 am)
Reply to: Robin
I am interested in how you responded to the situation and to the Recruiter. As far as a fight breaking out- it's simply a couple of guys disagreeing. Besides, I'd never punch him. I'm bigger, stronger, and younger than him; wouldn't want to hurt him.
God is in control, you say. Exactly how much control does He exert on situations like this? God's controls and man's freedom, which wins out?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.06.07 (6:35 am)
Reply to: doeeyed
Thanks. I'll count on your prayers. I don't remember my transition into adulthood being so hard upon my parents.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.06.07 (6:37 am)
Reply to: almsthvn
Thanks. It's just life. No harder for me than for most. Actually, I'm blessed immeasurably. When you and I consider all the hard situations that others face, this is certainly surmountable. A little prayer, a little patience, a little time- eveything tends to work out.
posted by:
doeeyed (
reply)
post date:
06.06.07 (7:52 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
Your parents were lucky then. I certainly tried my parents patients.
You CAN count on the prayers.
posted by:
ggirl (
reply)
post date:
06.06.07 (12:36 pm)
You really opened hornet's nest here, didn't you Pastor Dave? Having just had a meltdown on Surr's blog, I will spare you any comment whatsoever on the situation in which we find ourselves in Iraq. I just want to say I hope your son doesn't go.
posted by:
up&at it (
reply)
post date:
06.07.07 (4:41 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
The comment "kill'em all" was on a t-shirt for marine enthusiast
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.07.07 (5:03 pm)
Reply to: up&at it
I wouldn't want any relative of mine to wear it.
posted by:
heavyarms (
reply)
post date:
06.12.07 (8:18 am)
Reply to: tfruge1
Well said.
Dave: I'm not going to pretend to know what you're going through. My prayers, whatever they are worth, are with you and your son.
posted by:
heavyarms (
reply)
post date:
06.12.07 (8:18 am)
Reply to: tfruge1
Well said.
Dave: I'm not going to pretend to know what you're going through. My prayers, whatever they are worth, are with you and your son.
