posted by:
mimi (
reply)
post date:
06.26.07 (3:54 pm)
absolutely!
xoxox
posted by:
eraserhead667 (
reply)
post date:
06.26.07 (4:41 pm)
I worked a couple days recently through my temp service for a company called Matthew 25 Ministries, who do some excellent work for the poor. We helped them clear out an old nursing home, and loaded two trucks full of beds and various medical supplies to be sent to South America. It's a very good feeling to be part of something like that even if you are far away from the people who are being helped. As non-religious as I personally am, I will always feel a connection with anyone honestly trying to help those in need, and it was a very good experience.
posted by:
ruined (
reply)
post date:
06.26.07 (5:58 pm)
The important thing is, that seed has been planted. Because it has been planted, it will not go to waste. If I remember correctly, that is Biblically promised. To what extent that seed will grow, of course, is up to that individual. The best thing is to nurture that seed with the skillful, but careful hand of a gardener working with the least hardy of plants.
I was in a financial crisis a few years back when the company I worked for suddenly closed its doors, without warning. The church I attended at the time gracefully presented me with one week's salary to soften the blow. That spoke volumes to me. Unfortunately, after that gift, the church took the position that I owed them my soul. I was expected to perform their every bid. I was more or less forced into performing on the music team (playing trumpet), designing their web site (free of my usual fees), and do computer repair for them on demand (again, free from my usual fees). I eventually left that church because I was tired of feeling like I was in a perpetual debt state to them.
Moral of the story, give carefully... but if you are moved to do so, do so cheerfully!
posted by:
LadyG (
reply)
post date:
06.26.07 (11:54 pm)
I think tjat the church do have to have guidelines or people will take advantage, usually the same people that don't pay their light bills or want help with rent.
I personally think that we should help all that we can, that is why we have a benevolence offering, the guidelines, it's a limit on how much is given.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.07 (6:18 am)
Reply to: eraserhead667
That does sound like hard work.
I think we are closest to what God intends when we sacrificially give of ourselves, without judgment and without grudge, to help others.
Now I will have to read Matthew 25 to see the connection.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.07 (6:32 am)
Reply to: ruined
I've been thinking about your situation...
A church should practice what it preaches when it comes to giving. Without demand for compensation/expectation of return.
The pressure you felt resulting from this gift- did these people truly expect your services in return for the gift? If so, then it was not truly a "gift". As someone closely involved in church work, let me offer an alternative scenario. Through your financial crisis and opportunity of ministry, the people of your church got to know you much better than before. They discovered your gifts/talents with music and computers. Many, many people offer countless hours of service to their churches without expectation of compensation. They do it because they love their church and they feel it is a contribution to the work of the Kingdom. Maybe, and I do not know because I'm not privy to the matter, they were simply trying to utilize your gifts for the best of yourself and the church? And this is where the "priesthood of the believer" comes into play. Right now, our church Nominating Committee is seeking people to fill the positions of service in the church for the coming year. What we do is meet, consider who perhaps would best fill various positions. Then we contact the person. We tell him/her the need and why we feel he would be good with filling the need. Then we ask the person to pray about it before giving an answer, and then let us know. This way it becomes a personal matter of service to God. If the person seeks God's understanding of the matter, and then says "no", then we accept that not as a rejection but as an affirmation of what is best.
Now, if it was communicated to you that your services were expected as compensation for the gift from the church, that such would be a very poor way to treat a person, and you have right to be disappointed.
By the way, our church is working on a website and we need your services. Free, of course. (Just kidding!)
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.07 (6:40 am)
Reply to: LadyG
We are approached regularly by people with absolutely no connection with the church, with large financial requests. Generally I turn these matters over to the community ministry which our church regularly supports. They are better equipped to discern and meet such needs, and to keep record of repeat requests. What irritates me, a bit, is when a person calls on the phone with a need during worship/Bible study time. They do it because they think I would be readily available. I will tell the person to come by my office the next day and we will talk. Invariably, they person does not show up. What this person was doing is working the list of churches like a salesman would make calls to clients.
You are right. We must be wise. Soft-hearted, but wise.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.27.07 (6:43 am)
Reply to: mimi
Mat 25:40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
posted by:
bawdy (
reply)
post date:
06.27.07 (11:17 am)
I think you have to take each person on a case to case basis, but I think if your parish is willing to provide assistance, it's not too much to ask that they at least attempt to attend services.
posted by:
FinalyFree (
reply)
post date:
06.27.07 (11:21 am)
As you can well imagine I deal with this type of situation almost on a daily basis. Over the last 6 years that I've worked for a church I'll admit I've become a bit jaded. I've learned many a lesson the hard way. But when our new pastor came to this church he made me see my role as an employee AND as a Christian in a new light. Now if there are people I can't give food for different reasons, I ask them if I could pray for them. My church has used the Food Pantry we house as an Outreach ministry in the last year and met the spiritual needs of many. While most of my recent experiences have been positive there's always that one person who comes in and expects a lot more. I even had one gentleman tell me after he was denied food because it wasn't time for him to recieve it again that, 'we're a church, helping people like him was our job!' And there are many that feel the same way he did.
About 2 weeks ago I was at the office alone on a Friday morning. When I'm at the office by myself I always keep the front door locked. There was a knock at the door and I went to answer it. Standing there was one of our 'regulars' who routinely smells of cigarette smoke and alcohol. He didn't know our days of operation had changed. He told me he had NO food at his home. Ever cautious, I had already decided that I would not give him any groceries--I didn't want to leave him alone near my purse or the petty cash--so I went to my file cabinet and got him two $10 gift cards to a local grocery store. I told him that this should get him through the weekend until the pantry was open again. Do you know what his reply was? "Twenty dollars sure don't buy many groceries"
posted by:
Jennifer (
reply)
post date:
06.27.07 (10:01 pm)
Like FinalyFree, I too volunteer at our local food pantry. It is an excellent program that helps so many, but yet, there are a few who abuse it. I just simply consider it my job to give the food to those who are in need, and not to judge anyone who may abuse it. Their judgement day will come. (but...lol...any college student will tell you, one pack of cigarettes will buy 30 packages of Ramen noodles)...so, let's change my statement to "I try not to judge"
posted by:
auntconi (
reply)
post date:
06.28.07 (1:22 am)
Reply to: FinalyFree
~ with the remark of that person it certainly makes one wonder just how sincere he was in his need. You would think he would be very grateful for $20 worth of gift cards. God Bless you for helping people through your Outreach Program.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.28.07 (6:40 am)
Reply to: bawdy
And I do ask. I feel that is fair and reasonable. But it is very rare, almost non-existent, that someone we help would actually show up for church services. I wonder why? Perhaps it is embarassment. I think most never connect their need for financial assistance with a need for spiritual renewal. Many who come for financial help have never really had a healthy relationship with a church. They are "outsiders" who seem to think little about what a church is all about. Many think it is but another place to go for help. I understand that, and don't hold it against those who are truly needy.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.28.07 (6:49 am)
Reply to: FinalyFree
I'm trying to think how I would feed myself, over a weekend, with $20. He's right. It is not much, but it can be done. I remember as a College student living on less.
Here's my plan:
Loaf of bread, $2.00
Jar of peanut butter, $4.00
Jelly (cheap, store brand), $1
Luncheon meat, $3.00
Mustard, $1
Gallon Milk, $4
6 cans of green beans, $3
Tax, $2
It's not a gourmet meal, but it will keep a guy alive.
Here's an alternative menu:
Two packs cigarettes, $10
Two 6-packs beer, $10
Perhaps this will keep you alive for the weekend?
I've a suspicion the latter may be an ongoing diet for your friend.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.28.07 (6:58 am)
Reply to: Jennifer
Yes, Ramen Noodles. 25 years after my college days, I still wear those Ramen Noodles around my waist. Don't you think a reason many poor people are overweight is because Ramen Noodles are cheap?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.28.07 (7:00 am)
Reply to: auntconi
When we get to evaluating the true need of such, it really becomes a challenge. Lifestyle, poor choices, a welfare mentality, laziness? But, I do not really know this person. I haven't walked in his shoes. So, if I'm to err, I'll err on the side of generosity.
posted by:
auntconi (
reply)
post date:
06.28.07 (9:48 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
~ and I, too, would err on the side of generosity; which in the case of that man, FinallyFree did just so; and he seemed to not be very appreciative. If he were truly in need, he would know that $20 would allow him to make it over the weekend. (enuf sed)
posted by:
FinalyFree (
reply)
post date:
06.28.07 (12:13 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
I would completely agree that 20 bucks don't buy many groceries but he only had to survive for 3 days. When I was 22, married with a 12 month old my husband brought home $175.00 a week. I had $30 per week to feed the 3 of us and a dog! It was miserable. Thankfully that only lasted for a few months before he got a better job but I know that one person, even 20 years later, can sustain himself for 3 days on $20.
I also agree that your second menu was probably more along the lines of what he was looking for. I don't like giving gift cards or gift certificates to a lot of our patrons because I know the temptation is too great to pass up the alcohol and tobacco.
I know you've been in the ministry longer than I have been working for it, but I'm curious, does it ever get any easier having to turn people down?
posted by:
FinalyFree (
reply)
post date:
06.28.07 (12:17 pm)
Reply to: auntconi
I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying to this man, "There's been many times I would have been thrilled to have $20 to spend on groceries" but I didn't. I love my job and I especially love helping others, but it's the total lack of appreciation from some of the folks that make the job very difficult. Thanks :)
posted by:
ruined (
reply)
post date:
07.01.07 (1:47 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
I would agree with that alternative view, if not for a single sentence hissed at me. When I told the music director that I wished to sit with my family during the service, rather than sitting up front, I was met with the response, "After all we've done for you, you don't want to help us in return?"
Needless to say, it wasn't long before I walked out of those doors, never to return.
As for your web site... hmmm... actually, I would consider it! For two reasons. One: good way to build the ol' portfolio. Two: It's another way I can "give and give freely". ;)
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
07.03.07 (7:02 am)
Reply to: ruined
That's highly irritating. I would like to think the Minister of Music was reflecting his own attitude and not that of the church. I'll bet if the senior Pastor knew of this statement, he would have a serious confrontation with this man about proper treatment of those we are called to serve. Like I said, very irritating to me.
