Vengeance is revenge taken for an insult, injury, or other wrong. It moves beyond protection of self and others, which would be justifiable force. And it moves beyond justice. It is true that justice involves punishment, an action intended to protect others and deter future harm. However, justice morphs into vengeance when the punishment is brought about foremost for emotional benefit of self, and not truly for the good of greater society.

As an example, at this time of societal development, I believe the death penalty is a matter of vengeance. As such, in my opinion it is unworthy of a truly civilized society. Certainly it is not Christian. And I understand as a conservative and Evangelical Christian, and as a political conservative, my point of view is very much in the minority.

I've mentioned my viewpoint a couple of times at church when I thought the study and the scriptures invited such. Most paritioners sort of look at me, with blank stares that say "I don't comprehend and it does not matter because I've already my mind made up and do not want to consider more deeply about the issue". One lady, a couple of times, replied with great emotion that I would think differently if my sister had been raped and killed. Gently I acknowledged her pain, and briefly explained there is a difference between what is right and good, and what I as a sin-capable human being might personally do. I tried to emphasize that I understand such anger and pain and desire to retaliate. But, while justice is our responsibility and right, vengeance is God's job. This lady did not understand. Her sister was murdered, and she would be glad to see the one who did it impaled from a pitchfork. And I really cannot blame her, although I think God expects better.

In my journey upon this earth, I am not even close to achieving the ideal of a heart that foregoes vengeance. I'd like to think my greatest struggle would be to eschew vengence when someone I love is injured, and I'd like to think I have come to the point that I can overcome the temptation to exact vengeance in response to strictly personal offense. Jesus says to turn the other cheek; sometimes I can do that. Not always.

The capacity for vengeance shows up, sometimes, as I am driving. Let's say a driver cuts me off, narrowly missing my front bumper. Primitive hand gestures sometimes follow. More irritating is when the guy behind me flashes his lights and rides my bumper. I slow down even more. Most irritating is the careless driver on the cellphone.

I can be vengeful. It's a fact. It's something God's working on in my life. A lesson yet to be fully implemented into behaviour.

I write of the "heart of darkness". I think, lurking within every person, is the capacity for evil. The Bible is abundant with this teaching. I pray. I spend time with God. And I resemble the ideal, Jesus Christ, a tad bit more than before. But, just a tad.

I remember, about 20 years ago, going through a very difficult situation with a group of people. They were relentless in their ugliness toward my family and self. I sought to reason with them, but they were hellbent for my demise. I asked God to deliver me, and yet the confrontation continued for over a year. These were supposed to be fellow Christians, disciples of the same loving Jesus as myself. Yet they were mean. I finally worked through the matter and found a way to survive. Toward the end, when it became obvious that God was not going to swoop down to my rescue, I had a dream. It was a sweet dream. It felt so very good. I can still vividly remember some of the details. In the dream I took a gun, a big gun, and went from house to house to confront my enemies. One by one I looked them in the eyes, and without remorse I pulled the trigger. There was no guilt. And, like I said, it was only a dream. In real life, I never threw a punch, and I tried to behave with as much gentleness as I could muster at that point in my process of maturity. But it is a reminder that, inside somewhere, is a person who just possibly could do such a thing. It scares me, and it humbles me. It is a reminder of why I must follow Christ.

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posted by: bawdy (reply)
post date: 09.04.07 (11:56 am)

I have no problem with the death penalty for the most heinous offenders. Good riddance. It saves the taxpayers money if they were kept alive. And I think most of us would want vengeance just like your parishioner if a loved one was victimized. It's human nature. Even God could be vengeful. Let's not forget Sodom and Gomorrah..

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posted by: fractalmom (reply)
post date: 09.04.07 (12:15 pm)

thoughts of vengeance for me, are rather like thoughts of winning the lottery. nice to dream about, but not something that will ever happen. whether or not my personal wishes conflict with God's wishes...well most likely they do. that didn't even make sense to me LOL.

i know in advance that i will never be what God hopes me to be, but i still have to try to be that person.

that being said, i still do have daydreams of vengeance, rudeness, and winning the lotto!

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posted by: IntricateGirl (reply)
post date: 09.04.07 (1:16 pm)

Though it's certainly not something to tell someone who has lost a family member to violence, the very fact that she brought up her sister proves that vengeance motivates her. After all, she is talking about the death penalty in generic terms. Anyone who commits a heinous crime becomes the person that murdered her sister, and she's ready to hang them all. While I feel for her, I can't bring myself to that same thought.

That's not to say I am not vengeful. And in many ways, my vengeance is far more evil. I think about the people who have wronged me, and I don't wish them dead. In fact, I want them to live a very long life. But I want them to be miserable for the entire length of it. I want their minds and spirits broken. It's not something I'm proud of, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't true either.

(And on an unrelated side note: if you were the Dave that visited my blog, I think there was a misunderstanding. It's 2% LESS. Not 2%. Big difference. lol)

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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 09.05.07 (5:49 pm)

Reply to: kurtmaddox

I hate to admit this, but your idea is spot on.

Damn.

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posted by: sebastianjoshua (reply)
post date: 09.05.07 (7:44 pm)

patience is a very basic thing to be close to GOD

and anger can easily trigger when you dont have patience

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 09.06.07 (6:54 am)

Reply to: bawdy
You make a some valid points. It is human nature to seek vengeance upon enemies. The Psalmist writes, "O LORD, God of vengeance, God of vengeance, shine forth!" - Psa 94:1. I've said that prayer, and God chose not to grant my wishes. I can relegate such Old Testament scriptures to a primitive and still developing understanding of God. A bit more challenging is the New Testament teachings about God's vengeance, such as... "Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, 'VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,' says the Lord.- Rom 12:19" For the follower of Christ, this does take away the right to such an approach toward enemies. If vengeance is to seek revenge, then I find it hard to believe a loving God would do such. I think, in context, the scripture is telling us to leave the matter of vengeance up to God. We are to be about the business of loving our enemy and seeking to overcome evil with good.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 09.06.07 (6:56 am)

Reply to: fractalmom
Just a daydream, like winning the lottery- I like that. Perhaps such fantasizing is a good way to release pent-up frustration, and thus avoid a nervous breakdown?

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 09.06.07 (7:05 am)

Reply to: kurtmaddox
I go along with that, for our society to interpret the Death Penalty as life in prison with no possibility of release. I have little sympathy for the plight of the hardened and violent criminal concerning his having to pay a severe debt to society. I just don't think we need to kill him. Like the muddled message of the movie, we destroy ourselves in the process. Lock him away. I don't think we need to go out of our way to make his life any more miserable- incarceration is enough. He can read, exercise, watch television. But he will never again experience freedom. He will for the rest of his life know why. This seems, to me, punishment severe enough.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 09.06.07 (7:26 am)

Reply to: IntricateGirl
Indeed, I visited your blog and commented. I guess I did not read carefully enough. I thought it amazing that you would complain about 2% bodyfat. Besides, how do you measure that? I know we have these fancy bathroom scales that purport to do so, but I doubt their accuracy. I would think a reading with any degree of accuracy would require some kind of scientific measuring devices, or at least ultrasonic readers and calipers and such. Maybe there is a way to suspend a body in water and make a measurement. It can't be easy. I'm thinking I have 2% body fat, in my right hand.

More seriously, I agree that my fellow church member is consumed with revenge, which cannot be healthy physically or spiritually. She is not prepared nor able to talk about it.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 09.06.07 (7:27 am)

Reply to: surrogate
I would like for you two to stop with the agreement. No more, please.

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posted by: PastorDave (reply)
post date: 09.06.07 (7:28 am)

Reply to: kurtmaddox
You are no longer allowed to agree with surrogate, at least not on my blog.

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posted by: fractalmom (reply)
post date: 09.06.07 (7:54 am)

Reply to: PastorDave
Surrogate and Kurt agreeing? Is the sun blue? Next thing Surrogate and I will be agreeing. Then, it will be the end. LOL

as to nervous breakdowns, if THAT is true I am going to stop daydreaming immediately darn it! I have been trying for 30 years to have a nervous breakdown and no one will cooperate!

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posted by: surrogate (reply)
post date: 09.06.07 (11:58 am)

Reply to: PastorDave

My apologies. It was his fault.

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posted by: fractalmom (reply)
post date: 09.07.07 (5:49 am)

sheesh. LOL. I guess I'd better. Next thing you know, we will all agree on a candidate. This is really scaring me now...

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