posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (9:37 am)
Well put.
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (10:21 am)
hmmmm. interesting. i think i'll come down solidly on the side of well prepared. don't know if i am ready to kill someone or not, but i do know i am not ready to be killed by anyone either. so i will both own, and use if necessary, a gun.
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (10:21 am)
oh. and if i pull a gun, i will be killing with it. no warning shots.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (10:45 am)
Reply to: fractalmom
You sound comfortable with the possibility of killing another person. Why no warning shots? Seems to me, the taking of another life is an ultimate act, something with which we must answer to God. Seems there needs to be a respect for life and understanding of the ramifications of the decision. Not easy. You kill a person. No warning shots?
posted by:
bawdy (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (12:40 pm)
I wouldn't own one, but respect the right of responsible people to keep one in their homes for self defense or to go hunting. But no one needs rapid fire guns that contain too many cartridges like the madman at Virginia Tech used. Some are too deadly and should be outlawed.
posted by:
creekcroc (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (12:51 pm)
that is a good reson my dad only has 1 cuz his dad left them to him in his will he also left my dad black powder for some of the guns and my dad said that if our house cot on fire it would blow up. im scared.......
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (1:05 pm)
yes. well then. gun totin granny that i am...
i am not by nature a violent person, preferring the power of speech to get me out of 'most' situations, and the power of 'feet' to get me out of the rest.
that being said, in MY home, if a person violates MY property, where MY babies are located and whom I am protecting, they are gonna die. period. end of statement. i may die trying to protect them, but someone is gonna die. i am not going to wait and see if they are going to threaten me. i am not going to wait and see if they are gonna rape me, or the babies. i will not warn them. i will simply kill them and let God sort it all out. i am not a patient person when i feel threatened.
THAT being said, i have a VERY LARGE dog who discourages such visitors, and is well known, so hopefully no one is ever stupid enough to put me in the position to kill them.
so then, we come to the possible scenario of someone breaking into my home. if i am not there, they are welcome to whatever the dog will allow them to take.
if i am there...
first law of gun carrying. never pull a weapon unless ready to shoot.
second law. never shoot unless to kill.
it's basically responsibility. if i take time to aim and fire a warning shot, i will most likely be dead. i am not particularly crazy about that idea, so if it has to be me or them..it will be them.
call first.
posted by:
mimi (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (1:35 pm)
Reply to: fractalmom
I absolutely agree with you, fmom...
posted by:
jimbones (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (1:56 pm)
I own a 45caliber pistol, and keep it loaded...so it's 'safe'! I know not to play with it! I've pulled a gun on several people in my time, and yes if they had not backed down I would have used it. I prefer talk first, shoot second, but having the gun allowed me the time to talk first. It held them at bay and forced them to leave. I would like to get through my life without killing anyone, but if push comes to shove, I'll be happy to pull the trigger. I believe my mind being made up on this, gives an added threat when in a confrontation, they somehow 'know' you are genuine, and unafraid to use the gun. One intruder kept pushing me back, and I drew a line across the carpet, and told him, onje more step and you're dead! I could back up no further, and I believe the coldness in my words convinced him to depart.
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (3:03 pm)
Reply to: jimbones
sheesh. you are either very brave, very stupid, or very blessed LOL. i would not be that brave. i don't give chances
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (3:14 pm)
Reply to: jimbones
Are you in law enforcement?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (3:25 pm)
Reply to: fractalmom
I support the right of people to own guns for protection, but the statistics have swayed me that it just doesn't make sense. Your gun is FAR more likely to be used by someone in the family against another member of the house - either on purpose of by accident than it is to ever be used for the intended purpose, and it's about fifty-fifty that it would be used effectively in the case of an intruder entering your home - notwithstanding JimBones claim that he's pulled one numerous times in his life.
It's not a hard and fast rule, but what's always bothered me most about the right to bear arms, is that in many cases, it's the very sort of people who insist how important guns are in their lives, that are the very folks I'd least like to see own them. And remember, I'm not saying this is always the case. Certainly, it's not, but perhaps you understand what I mean.
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (3:45 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
point of fact, it's rather scarey to agree with you LOL. i own a gun because i do believe that being out in the country and very remote, there is at least a fair chance that i am fair game to predators. my guns are loaded, and trigger locked. i am not now, nor have i ever been stupid. however, i can get to the gun and unlock it very rapidly.
do i think i take a chance? yes. do the kids know i have a gun in the house. yes. also the reason our children are taught early and strictly about gun safety. is it safe? probably not statistically.
do i have good and safe alternatives? no. there is no police dept or fire dept that could be here within anything remotely resembling speed.
does it bother me that any idiot can go out and buy a gun. you betcha!!
am i one of the idiots? yup!
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (3:54 pm)
Reply to: fractalmom
You're not an idiot.
As to agreeing with me? Don't worry about it. It just means you've thought something through logically. -It'll happen every now and again.
(hehe... sorry, but you just can't lob waste-high fastballs and not expect a few hot line-drives.)
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (5:09 pm)
Reply to: bawdy
You've "jumped the gun" and stated well some of the points of my next post, in which I intend to defend the right of gun ownership, with a few sensible limitations. Of course, I guess some hunt deer with a sub-machinegun.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (5:11 pm)
Reply to: creekcroc
Black powder? That must be a very old gun.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (5:18 pm)
Reply to: fractalmom
Someone is going to die if they violate your property? And, in my opinion, this is the machismo produced by gun ownership that is most dangerous. It makes it too easy to be a killer. I'm not convinced you have the right, morally or legally, to kill someone simply because he violates your property. You can't kill someone simply for trespassing, or simply because you perceive a threat, or simply because you have a gun. There must be a real probability of harm. When you add together the factors of darkness, fear, motherly instinct, and a loaded gun- then deadly and irresponsible things happen.
I'm interested: What qualifies as a violation of your property sufficient for you to take a gun and kill the perpetrator? Stealing your lawn mower? Walking across your yard at night? I believe in your right to own a gun, and your right to use deadly force. Just not with a swagger.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (5:23 pm)
Reply to: jimbones
On several people? I've lived 33 years as an adult, sometimes in places that would not be considered all that safe. And I've never felt the need to kill someone. But, I guess, there are occupation that might lead to the necessity to point a gun and be ready to kill someone, several times over the course of life. Law Enforcement. Security. Military. Drug Running. Surely there must be an extraordinary occupation that would require such use of deadly force?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (5:26 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Responsible gun ownership. Background checks. Mandatory training. No criminal record. Gun registration. These things make sense.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (5:28 pm)
Reply to: fractalmom
Don't you hate trying to debate with a guy who thinks he is the most reasonable, enlightened person on earth?.... Uhh, I refer to surrogate, not myself!
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (6:49 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
A fortiori. Sorry I should have clarified my position.
Violation of Dawn's Property law number Uno.
Coming into my house with force, when I do not know you, and believe you are going to hurt me or the children.
walk across my yard and I'll just let the dang dog out. He can make it to the fence in 3.2 seconds. Might be fun to see if the walker can....
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (6:56 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
in response to "I'm not convinced you have the right, morally or legally, to kill someone simply because he violates your property. You can't kill someone simply for trespassing, or simply because you perceive a threat, or simply because you have a gun. There must be a real probability of harm. When you add together the factors of darkness, fear, motherly instinct, and a loaded gun- then deadly and irresponsible things happen."
PD I am with you to a point. Yes, there MUST be a real probability of harm.
but honestly, darkness doesn't bother me. I often go outside at night in pitch black darkness.
fear? normal amount I'd say. Enough to be cautious in manner and deed at least. I don't get into my car without looking in both front and back seats, etc.
Motherly instinct? Yeppers. Got that one alrighty.
Basically, it really would take someone BREAKING in. To the actual HOUSE. But at that point, I wouldn't hesitate one nanosecond past realizing that I do not recognize the person. I would much rather take a life than have my babies violated. pure and simple.
and honestly, I think if more people did that, there would be one heck of a lot less break ins. If the criminal just wasn't sure he would make it out alive..then maybe he wouldn't bother to try to rob the house.
posted by:
ravensrain (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (7:18 pm)
Hear, Hear.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (7:56 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
I agree. Those things make sense...
And I'm not more enlightened than any other incredibly wonderful person...
What?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (7:59 pm)
Reply to: fractalmom
Now we are finding agreement.
Recently, in the news I read of a young man who was shot to death by a man because the kid trespassed on his grass. Apparently the yard was immaculate, and the owner was tired of kids walking across his yard. He warned them, and they continued. So, he killed the next violator. Stupid people should not have guns.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (8:01 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
I try to be nice. You deserve it. Sometimes...I just have to try to pick a fight. What are you going to do- shoot me?
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (8:01 pm)
Reply to: ravensrain
So, we have agreement. Thanks.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (8:28 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Nah.
I like Chris Rock's ideas about guns. He thinks they should be as available as they are now, but he thinks bullets should cost $5000.00 each.
I'll tmail you the youtube link...
posted by:
OldSchool (
reply)
post date:
01.07.08 (8:43 pm)
Very well written. I do not own a gun for many of the reasons you outlined.
I will definitely want to follow your blog.
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.08.08 (5:53 am)
another point to make, although one probably not shared by many.
there is a fundamental difference between living in the city where you have (allegedly) access to emergency services and where the crime rate is much higher
and living in the country, very remote, where there are also drug induced nuts running around..and having a husband who cannot move fast (if at all sometimes), cannot walk well and have two little kids, and no one but neighbors who will potentially respond in an emergency.
in the city? I probably would own a gun, but keep it unloaded and locked up. I would keep a phone next to me and be ready to dial 911.
however, most of the break ins resulting in bodily harm to the occupants seem to be those in which the house is NOT in the city, but in the country, remote etc. perhaps too many prying eyes and neighbors. I don't really know.
i just feel much, MUCH safer armed.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.08.08 (6:58 pm)
“You'll take my guns when you pry them from my cold dead fingers!”
Whenever I see this particular bumper sticker, I always think to myself, "Okay. If you insist."
posted by:
ammegan (
reply)
post date:
01.09.08 (12:29 am)
Whoa...not ready to be killed yet! ;)
Happy New Year Pastor Dave! God bless you!
posted by:
ggirl (
reply)
post date:
01.09.08 (11:30 am)
I hate guns and will not have one in my house. My dad shot himself and the whole time I was growing up, I was afraid he'd shoot someone else.
This week, a man was going hunting with his dog and put his gun in the back of his pickup so he could open the tailgate for the dog to get out. The dog accidentally (in his enthusiasm for hunting) stepped on the gun, killing the man. Only in Texas.
posted by:
spook102956 (
reply)
post date:
01.09.08 (6:42 pm)
This blog and the others' replies have certainly made me think. Very interesting! If I were in a debate class, this is a subject I could debate either side. Very off the subject, but another subject I could debate either side is "once saved always saved". As a Baptist, I imagine Paster Dave is ready to jump down my Nazarene throat on that one! Before anyone gets too defensive, I allow my 16 yr old to attend a Baptist church. I told you I'm way off suject. Sorry.
posted by:
spook102956 (
reply)
post date:
01.09.08 (6:43 pm)
*subject
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.10.08 (7:01 am)
Reply to: spook102956
Obviously your daughter has shown great wisdom in choosing a church! Maybe I will blog about the subject sometime. With this blog I generally stay away from blatantly religious and overly theological subjects, I think because I try to interact with more than just the church crowd. It helps me stay connected with the very kinds of people I'm supposed to love and influence, and for whom Christ died and rose again.
Nazarene? Lots of Nazarenes where I am from. Yeah, if you guys would get straight about holiness and eternal security, then you would be a lot like us Baptist.
posted by:
graceshaker (
reply)
post date:
01.10.08 (12:27 pm)
i saw jesus at the gun show. he was buying .338 shells.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.10.08 (12:52 pm)
Reply to: graceshaker
No. That was surrogate. He just thinks he is Jesus.
posted by:
spook102956 (
reply)
post date:
01.10.08 (5:41 pm)
I promise I'll get off the religion. But I think when we get to heaven (yes, that even includes Baptists!) I don't think there'll be any discussion about who was right and who was wrong. I think we'll all realize we were alot more alike than we realized on earth.
posted by:
Robin (
reply)
post date:
01.12.08 (8:51 pm)
I'm with fractal mom.
FWIW, I think it is very different to be a single female with no man for protection.
I have a shotgun. I like shotguns, you don't really have to aim, just cock, point in general direction of the intruder, and let fly. I don't carry it, it stays in my bedroom. If you come in my house and I see you before you see me, I will shoot and kill you immediately. I am not going to give you a chance to rush me and take the gun and perhaps use it on me.
Here in Florida, we have a new law that states that if you are in your car and or home and feel threatened, you have no obligation to be "reasonable", and can shoot to kill immediately. Road rage has gone way down. I don't know about home invasions.
posted by:
Robin (
reply)
post date:
01.12.08 (8:57 pm)
BTW, I once served on a jury for an execution style, drug deal/trafficer gone bad, double murder trial.
I agree with Pastor Dave that shooting someone is nothing like it is on TV. If you could have seen the pictures that I had to look at of the victims, or what was left of them, you would be horrified.
