posted by:
OldSchool (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (8:09 am)
I did a recommendation last week of the film Juno. As far as abortion goes, it has a positive message because this 16 year old girl carries the child and allows it to be adopted by someone who is ready to love it & give it that chance you are talking about.
Have you ever seen the movie Minority Report? It deals with the future ability to stop a criminal before they even commit the crime and the potential existential issues that creates. Recommend that movie as well.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (8:10 am)
Wouldn't it be nicer if people used birth control more often?
You'd support that I assume. And you certainly wouldn't want abortion outlawed. The number of abortion would likely NOT decline all that much but we'd have lots more dead mothers too. Ever do any research on how many women used to die from back-alley abortions?
Besides, if God wants a specific soul on this planet for a full lifetime, you don't think he's powerful enough to make it happen? I've never understood that particular disconnect.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (8:35 am)
Reply to: OldSchool
I will see Juno, per your recommendation.
I've seen Minority Report. It was an interesting movie, and did well to state the fallacy of pre-judgement. I also thought it was a bit creepy how the billboards would change, as he rode along, to appeal to his personal interests. I think that will actually be the reality in a few years.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (8:41 am)
Reply to: surrogate
I am going to guess there have never been anything near 1.2 women dead because of back-alley abortions.
The book asks an interesting question: Statistically, what is the value of a fetus in relation to a person? For the sake of statistics, the author assigns the value of 1%. 100 fetuses(sp?) = 1 person. So, when there would be 1.5 million abortions, it would be equivalent to the lives of 15,000 persons. Should, theoretically speaking, the fetuses(sp) be allowed to live and mature, would they end up directly and indirectly contributing to the deaths of 15,000 people? The writers say no. It is not even close. The assumption, not exactly stated, is that abortion causes much more harm than it prevents. I agree.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (9:07 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I guess God isn't as powerful in some things as he is in others.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (9:52 am)
Reply to: surrogate
Same with the Holocaust. Killing Fields. Rwanda. Incest. Are you saying, unless God directly intervenes, then all is o.k.?
posted by:
IntricateGirl (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (9:59 am)
The assumptions are not stated because as economists, it's not something their field indulges. Economists compare causes, effects, and groups until they find out whether some group doing something caused something else to happen. Economics is supposed to be a "deeply impersonal and dehumanized approach to the subject" because that is the best way to shed true light on a subject.
Also, and information that I suspect was not available to you in an audio book, is the foreword to the chapter. In the first paragraph, it is stated that their findings should not be misinterpreted as an endorsement of abortion. They also say that crime might be prevented as easily by providing better environments for the people who would commit the crimes. Ergo, abortion is not the only way to prevent crime.
Furthermore, the author DOES NOT assign a value of 100 fetuses for every person. Do you not remember what immediately preceded that statement? He talks about the "Solomonic task" of sacrificing the life of a newborn for an indeterminate number of fetuses. He says that if you are either resolutely pro-life or pro-choice, this is a simple calculation. If you are strongly pro-life, the value of a newborn to the value of a fetus is 1:1. If you believe that a woman has the right to an abortion above anything else, then no number of fetuses equal one newborn. And then, the author sets up a strawman, who believes the numbers above. The author himself has never said that these are his own personal feelings, but presents them as a way to understand the concept illustrated.
As a side note, I suspect I will have a part two to this comment, but I'm trying desperately to find a missing book that contains some facts and figures I need.
And finally, the entire issue of abortion has been so watered down into ridiculous sound bites that I don't think people realize all the societal and biological factors that come into play. And in the end, it doesn't matter. When personal convictions come into play, facts are irrelevant.
posted by:
ggirl (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (10:43 am)
Not to change the subject, but maybe the decline in violent crime has something to do with the huge number of people already in prison? The percentage is staggering.
posted by:
bawdy (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (11:45 am)
Reply to: surrogate
Free will dictates how our lives play out without God pulling strings.
posted by:
IntricateGirl (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (12:23 pm)
Reply to: ggirl
The chapter in question addresses that. The number of people in prison has been shown to account for about one-third of the drop in crime in the 90's. Even then, the data is mixed. Police seem to have little effect on the rate of crime, but criminals aren't going to catch themselves. So even that 1/3 has more to it than simply putting people in prison. If that were the case, it would make sense to lock away anyone who commits any crime, however past societies have shown that doesn't work very well.
Sorry about the double post above.
posted by:
Farfarello (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (12:43 pm)
I totally agree with this..
Unfortunately Poland is turning into a country of fanatics..
A paticular political party (LPR - League of Polish Families) wants abortion to be outlawed entirely, not allowing raped women and women with terminal illnesses to get an abortion that could potentially be fatal to them and the baby..
I believe that in those circumstances abortions should be allowed..
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (1:08 pm)
Reply to: IntricateGirl
It seems you have a greater understanding of this book, and recall of specifics, than I. I much appreciate your clarification of the author's point concerning the value of a fetus. In listening to the book, I do not get the idea that the writers are simply disinterested observers. Maybe it is the way the reader, himself one of the authors, chooses to enunciate his points? I've enjoyed the book and still have a couple of hours to go, which will be completed on my drive to South Carolina next Monday.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (1:11 pm)
Reply to: ggirl
Quite a drain on our society. Yesterday I visited the County Detention Center, which houses about 3,000 inmates. As I waited, I looked around, observing the guard towers and the razor wire, how clean the facilities seemed to be kept, and the robot-like behaviour of the inmates. It all had a saddening effect upon me, and reminded me that likely there is little rehab taking place. Just punishment. My friend is in this place because of bad checks- I think surely there could be a more effective and appropriate mode of punishment for those like him?
posted by:
jentlejiraffe (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (1:12 pm)
PS - "I also thought it was a bit creepy how the billboards would change, as he rode along, to appeal to his personal interests. " I thought this was creepy too and every time I walk in our walmart I think of it. OUr freezer section senses where you are and the lights turn on and off based on if you are standing in front of them.
posted by:
jentlejiraffe (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (1:18 pm)
PD - I do not know the specifics as you well know. But your comment here
"My friend is in this place because of bad checks- I think surely there could be a more effective and appropriate mode of punishment for those like him?"
Made me think immediately "really, there might be a better way?" I guess I assume to be in jail for bad checks there has to be more than one incident in order to be in prison. If so, then there is repeat behavior and I wonder why your friend didn't stop themselves before it ever got this far.
Maybe there isn't a rehabilitation for repeat offenders.
I am not sure prison/jail was ever meant to rehabilitate. Maybe many decades ago that was the original intent but not now.
posted by:
rosietulips (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (1:56 pm)
Freakonomics is one of the books on my to-read list!
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.18.08 (3:19 pm)
I just finished reading Justice Clarence Thomas' book "My Grandfather's Son". Excellent and recommended reading for everyone. And, mostly, I think the message it gives is Accountability. Which is pretty much what our society as a whole, and the dysfunctional people as individuals are lacking. Perhaps if there was a magic pill we could all take to make us accountable, our problems would be resolved? But alas, there is not.
Accountability or lack thereof is probably responsible for most of the major ills we face today as a culture/society. Shame, isn't it.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.19.08 (7:01 am)
Reply to: jentlejiraffe
I believe he should be punished for his crime against society. I guess I would especially believe such if I were the recipient of the bad checks, and especially if such were to have a damaging effect upon my life. But the guy is not a violent criminal. To pay his fines and make the check good, he needs to work. A better alternative to incarceration could include some stiff fines, house arrest at night and weekends, probation. He could wear an electronic bracelet. Heck, I'm even amenable to public stockade in the town square, maybe for weekends. We all could walk by and gawk at him.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.19.08 (7:03 am)
Reply to: Farfarello
I agree. Seems a panel of physicians/citizens could determine when mitigating circumstances warrant an abortion.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.19.08 (7:05 am)
Reply to: rosietulips
I won't say that it is a great book, but it is a fun and interesting read. Upcoming for me is a primer on Buddhism. My wife thinks I read the most boring of books!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
01.19.08 (7:10 am)
Reply to: fractalmom
Accountability? I guess you mean, if I mess around and cause an unplanned pregnancy, I should respond with integrity and responsibility, and if anyone suffers it should be me and not the innocent child? Refreshing, but not popular. Our culture has perfected the "blame anyone else, I am the victim" mentality.
I'd like to read the book. I heard Clarence Thomas interviewed about the book. He is nothing like the persona of him portrayed by the the media. He comes across as warm, articulate, thoughtful, even funny.
Clarence Thomas is from Georgia. You would never know it, living around here.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
01.19.08 (12:58 pm)
Reply to: bawdy
I get that bawdy, but tell me, isn't God as all-knowing and powerful as he wants to be? Isn't God powerful enough to ensure a specific soul has life on earth if he wants to? Isn't that, in fact, the basis of your faith? If Mary had miscarried, would Jesus never have been born? Or if she, for whatever reason, refused her task, would God have found another more willing partner? I just don't understand how people can think God is capable of SOME "miracles," but not others. Surely God KNOWS which pregnancies will be terminated, or for thousands of years, which mothers would die during childbirth - what were the figures at the turn of the 20th century? - or which women would die during botched illegal abortions?
Yes. We have free will. Doesn't God?
posted by:
fractalmom (
reply)
post date:
01.19.08 (3:11 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
I guess I do mean that, in a way. I just see all around me, what I call the new religion of victimology. Noting is EVER just simply your fault it seems. I get it alot with my dysfunctional daughter, but I also get it with all the kids. It always seems to be the 'teacher doesn't like me' or, the bank was unfair, or something equally as stupid. I dont' see hardly anyone anymore simply saying
man oh man, did I screw up. Guess I'll have to fix this....
and I miss hearing that.
posted by:
rosietulips (
reply)
post date:
01.20.08 (9:05 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I used to read a lot of "boring" books...now I just want to give my brain a break! I've been reading a lot of James Patterson lately.
posted by:
bawdy (
reply)
post date:
01.20.08 (12:02 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
I can't say for sure God has intervened to save one specific individual, or what is involved in a miracle.