posted by:
barnabus1 (
reply)
post date:
05.31.09 (6:39 pm)
To defile a church by an action such as this is blasphemous, or even worse sacrilege!! God's commandment is you shall not kill, and violating it in a church makes it even worse!! No way can God be pleased with this evil man's actions!! I hope he is caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law!!
posted by:
Ladyg (
reply)
post date:
05.31.09 (7:50 pm)
I am sure God is not pleased.
posted by:
bawdy (
reply)
post date:
06.01.09 (1:17 pm)
Well said.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.01.09 (4:53 pm)
Good post. I disagree with some of what you say here, but you say it well.
posted by:
truthserum42 (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (12:42 am)
Pastor Dave regardless of the pontification and rationalization of this event Abortions has been legal since 1973 as declared by the supreme court. Dr Tiller was a board certified gynocologist who performed the proceedures according to professional medical ethics and training. regardless of how we feel about abortions the arugment is invalid when a person is killed performing a legal function. We have added so much red meat for the bubbas's by calling abortonist murders instead of coming up with actions that would make them safe and rare. When it's all said and done we will probably discover Mr Roedor was some type of lunatic just looking for a war. He probably doesn't even like children and never offered to adopt one to prevent and abortion or pay a down and out prospective mother prenatal care.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (6:01 am)
Reply to: truthserum42
Well, no cleaning up of the language by rewording the description can justify, in the minds of not just lunatics but millions and millions of quite sane persons, the hideous and patently evil procedure of partial birth/late term elective abortion. It is unfair, in my estimation, to call someone a "bubba" because his morality and sense of humanity is offended by it.
The rest of what you say makes sense. Safe. Rare. Adoption. It is bothersome that this mantra of "safe and rare" seems to be just so much lip service on the part of the left. Where's the "rare" in any of their legislation or education, proposed or otherwise?
The guy is in the news today. Apparently, indeed, he is mentally unstable.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (6:17 am)
Reply to: surrogate
Words. Just words. You are generous to state that I say it well. But I am learning and coming to respect, more and more, how important it is to seek to say clearly what we think. Words make a difference, and I believe even more so today when it seems so many have forgotten-or never learned- the value of how you say something.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (6:18 am)
Reply to: bawdy
Thank you. And thanks for hanging around here for so long!
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (6:19 am)
Reply to: Ladyg
God must be amazed that we stray so very far, even as we purport to represent Him.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (6:38 am)
Reply to: barnabus1
Inherent in the gathering for worship is trust and fellowship. It would basically ruin the experience to have to post armed guards, use metal detectors, background checks, etc. So a church gathering is vulnerable by nature. It bothers me that there are people who will take advantage of a congregation. And it is scary. I've done and said things in the past that have been considered offensive by some persons, even some persons whom I would call unstable. And there are public figures who purport to represent my denomination who make people angry. It bothers me to think someone may walk into my church service and do such a thing.
posted by:
bawdy (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (12:51 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
No problem..you are always an enjoyable and thought provoking read and I enjoy your wit when you choose to employ it.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (3:03 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Well then, you anti-choice people better keep a lid on the crazies. And y'all ought to quit calling abortion "murder" unless you're willing to publicly label every woman who has ever had one a murderer too, AND seek to have them punished as such. Better to spend your time trying to make it easier for women to avoid unwanted pregnancies without trying to tell them to turn off the sexuality God gave them as part of their physical selves.
posted by:
truthserum42 (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (3:12 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave abortions have been in existence since the beginning of time, we make pro life the litmus test of appointing judges, electing representatives and senators yet Roe vs Wade still remains legal and is only serious discussed at election time. Why is there not a serious efforts among pro lifers to provide prenatal care, health care and day care for those women who find themselves in dire straits in bringing a child into the world that they can't support. I refused to believe that women get pregnant just to have an abortion instead of killing the abortionist let's do some meaningful and viable thing that will eliminate his job since he is performing a legal function that we seem unable to prevent lawfully. Since pro life judges can't with good conscious stop this horrific procedure maybe pro life and pro choice citizens can work to make them rare. Most of these degenerates who kill in the name of God are fanatical pro lifers.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (7:56 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Partial-birth abortion, late-term elective abortion, I consider to be the taking of an innocent life. Since it is legal, I guess you win on a technicality. I would like to see bare decency, minimal morality win out in this matter and for our lawmakers to have some courage on the issue. But, sadly, there is no compromise on the pro-abortion side. Only cheap talk.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (8:01 pm)
Reply to: truthserum42
He wasn't killed by the pro-life movement, but by a sick individual.
You are right- politicians manipulate the religious right with this issue. They wink to the other side of the aisle, pontificate for a few months, and win reelection only to do nothing. And such hypocrisy is why the Republican establishment is in such big trouble today. The answer is not for the Republicans to move closer to the middle ideologically, but to take seriously their conservative constituency.
O.K. Let's work to make abortion rare. A good start would be to put an end to partial birth. Any takers from the left?
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.02.09 (8:21 pm)
Reply to: PastorDave
Funny, I STILL don't know anyone who's PRO-abortion, despite the inaccurate label. I know lots and lots of people who aren't anti-choice like you guys.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.04.09 (5:22 pm)
Just read you comment to truth serum. "Patently evil."
Nice. Like you have a single clue about even ONE of the situations involved in the decisions these people made. Really pathetic Dave - and hateful.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.04.09 (5:43 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
Oh, I have no problem saying it is patently evil. It is. You have a healthy fetus. You birth it partially. You then poke a hole into the back of the skull, and suck the brains out. It is a procedure straight from the pits of Hell. You can nuance it, and be righteously indignant, but in the end it has no place in a decent society.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.04.09 (6:14 pm)
"You have a healthy fetus." Falsehood number one.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.04.09 (6:58 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
The falsehood, and it is puzzling and disheartening to me, is this idea that a viable child is the property of the mother and at her whim she is allowed to end his/her life. But, one second after the last centimeter of that same being clears the birth canal, it is all of a sudden a human being with inalienable rights. It is so unreasonable. And, evil. Extremists on this issue hold sway at this time in our history, to our shame and I believe ultimate judgment. I would dare to say, if a fair poll were to be taken, hardly 10% of the American public believes an 8 1/2 month unborn child has not even the basic right of protection from arbitrary killing. What you reveal with your unwillingness to be reasonable with the issue is why many feel so frustrated with the matter. The group you represent, perhaps 10% of the American public and sadly 90% of the Democrat Party, surely cannot continue forever with this ruse. It's more than a woman's right to choose. That right end's somewhere along the way- certainly when the unborn child is viable.
What we deeply need in American politics is someone, either party, who will actually engage the issue with reason and passion. For the last 20 years it has been lip service to extremists on both sides. I think it is reasonable to allow abortion in the first trimester. I think it is reasonable to protect the life of a viable fetus. I think it is reasonable to offer the morning after pill. I think it is reasonable to offer support, financially and socially, for the unwed and confused woman who is pregnant.
I do not think you are reasonable.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.04.09 (7:35 pm)
"perhaps 10% of the American public and sadly 90% of the Democrat Party" Um... I'll let that silly math speak for itself.
I'm all for not allowing partial birth abortion as a means of birth control. But Dave, it's NOT. Get your facts straight and I'll deal with the issue any way you like.
posted by:
PastorDave (
reply)
post date:
06.04.09 (8:06 pm)
Reply to: surrogate
It is so bankrupt and convoluted to somehow be calm and smug in thinking it is enlightened to take a vacuum and suck the brain out of a living, viable baby.
posted by:
surrogate (
reply)
post date:
06.05.09 (6:31 am)
Reply to: PastorDave
I'm calm, but certainly not smug. I KNOW I don't know enough about the circumstances of any given situation to make a judgment about the women or the doctors involved.
I'll bet you didn't know that surgeries are gross. Lots of blood and guts. Did you know that before just about any any surgery involves cutting right through God's handiwork to remove organs that God made? That's disgusting, isn't it?
As I said, learn what you're talking about. Research the whys of when these sorts of abortions are done. Yes, the procedures are disturbing, but you LOVE to make it sound as though these are perfectly happy and healthy babies just waiting for the that first gulp of air, and if the Mothers and Doctors would just allow the baby to be born, everything would be hunky dory. Intellectually, I'm pretty sure you know that's not the case.
Thirty-six week gestation. Lung development, ten percent. No eyes. Flippers for arms. Heart malformed, but somehow beating weakly. No opening for anus and no visible means of determining the baby's sex. Likelihood of the baby living one week? -less than one percent.
Who's smug? Not me. It would be any jerk not involved who sticks his nose into the situation and self-righteously insists that baby needs to suffer a while before God fixes his mistake himself.
posted by:
Robin (
reply)
post date:
07.01.09 (9:00 am)
Hi Pastor Dave
Haven't been by in a while. Your writings are always thought provoking.
While I do have some trouble with any form of vigilante justice, i have a question for you that troubles me, and that I hope you will answer.
If this same man (Tiller) was walking towards a nursery filled with newborn babies, and if this man stated unequivocally that his intention was to dismember and kill these babies with a machete upon entering, would it be ok to try to stop him from getting in? And if we could not persuade him to stop, would it be ok to kill him to prevent him from carrying out his plans? Wouldn't the person who risked his own life to prevent the murders be lauded as a hero? And wouldn't anyone who could stop this man from entering, but failed to act, be reviled as a morally reprehensible, craven coward?
Would it make any difference if the law said that it was ok for the man to enter the school and kill the newborns as long as he has the parents consent?
I have asked this question of many people whose spiritual advice i otherwise admire. No one has yet given a satisfactory answer as to why the man is a hero who kills the machete wielder entering a nursery to dismember newborns, while the man killing the abortion doctor wielding a scalpel and a suction machine to dismember a viable baby still in utero is wrong and a criminal.
posted by:
Robin (
reply)
post date:
07.01.09 (2:18 pm)
And if a country's man-made laws are "sacred" no matter how morally or ethically wrong they are ... then what do you make of colonial rebellion against the British government's taxes and laws,leading to the American Revolution? Shouldn't the colonists have just 'rendered unto Caesar' instead of being in open rebellion?
